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Huge Premiums For Toned Morgans. How Stable Is Toning?

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oriole's Avatar
Canada
5246 Posts
 Posted 05/04/2016  12:33 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add oriole to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers

This recent thread discusses the huge premiums paid for toned Morgans, with an example sold on ebay:

https://goccf.com/t/260241

My question is not whether it is worth it, but:

How stable is this toning over time? In 1, 10, 20 years, will the toning look the same, be better, or be worse? Are there any studies/ examples?

After all, it is the result of both a chemical reaction (the silver is oxidized) plus the optical effect of the interference pattern. If the oxidation layer changes thickness, the toning will change.
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Andrew99's Avatar
United States
1533 Posts
 Posted 05/04/2016  12:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Andrew99 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It is not oxidation. Silver oxide is gray and produces haze. It is silver sulfide, so the removal of the coin from an environment where it has sulfur exposure should halt the toning development. Coins in plastic holders should be stable in color.
Edited by Andrew99
05/04/2016 2:03 pm
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TypeCoin971793's Avatar
United States
6370 Posts
 Posted 05/04/2016  1:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TypeCoin971793 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Bill Fivaz urges strongly against investing in monster-toned coins.
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oriole's Avatar
Canada
5246 Posts
 Posted 05/04/2016  1:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add oriole to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks, Andrew99. So does anyone know if these plastic TPG slabs are air-tight, protecting the coins from sulfur in the atmosphere?
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Andrew99's Avatar
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 Posted 05/04/2016  2:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Andrew99 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Slabs are effectively air tight, but there is no sulfur in the atmosphere, in any kind of normal environment. Here's hoping you don't live downwind of an active volcano.
Edited by Andrew99
05/04/2016 2:11 pm
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Andrew99's Avatar
United States
1533 Posts
 Posted 05/04/2016  2:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Andrew99 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You can generate toned coins, completely naturally. It just takes 10 years or so. However, if I can turn an $80 coin into a $3000 coin, its worth the investment.
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MeadowviewCollector's Avatar
United States
4409 Posts
 Posted 05/04/2016  3:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MeadowviewCollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Slabs are effectively air tight


They aren't airtight and the TPG's guarantee doesn't cover color changes such as a gem red cent turning brown and going down in value as a result.

There are ways to artificially tone coins in slabs. Most if not all are easily detected by their unnatural appearance.

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Coinfrog's Avatar
United States
94367 Posts
 Posted 05/04/2016  5:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Toning is an endlessly debated subject. Certainly today's slabs virtually halt the process, especially on silver, which is the key point. Most all uncirculated silver coins prior to the 1930s will (and should) show at least some faint sense of toning if they have not been "dipped", especially around the edges - the first place to look on a so-called "blast white" coin. Problem is, the TPGs will slab dipped coins anyway, so many series (SLQs, Mercs, etc) are often collected ONLY in white, which is ridiculous.

If you collect high-end silver tyoe, expect a degree of toning and decide on a case-by-case basis.

Just my opinion.
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dsfreeworld's Avatar
United States
4337 Posts
 Posted 05/04/2016  6:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dsfreeworld to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
the phenomena known as "thin film interference" is something to go study to get an understanding of what is happening, why and what can further occur.
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Jaobler's Avatar
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6394 Posts
 Posted 05/04/2016  8:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Jaobler to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It makes sense to protect your premium toned coins to the extent possible. Slabs are a good start but as noted they are not air tight. The coins should be further protected by storage in a cool and dry closed environment like a safe or safe-deposit box. Invest in a couple of silica gel desiccant packs to keep in the safe and make sure they are reactivated periodically. These precautions should maintain the existing tone indefinitely.
Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts
 Posted 05/04/2016  8:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add just carl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Slabs are effectively air tight, but there is no sulfur in the atmosphere, in any kind of normal environment. Here's hoping you don't live downwind of an active volcano.

Completely wrong. Almost all Fossil Fuel power plants emit Sulfur in the form of Sulfur Oxide, SO or SO2. Also, Steel mills and many other plants with large furnaces. And worse yet is if it's SO2 and it is in a high humidity area, this becomes H2SO3 or H2SO4 and it is in a gas state. Anything of Copper in the area gets hit with this and becomes CuSO4, Copper Sulfate. One of the biggies on Copper type coins, Copper pipes and Copper Ground wires.
As to how stable a toned coin is. The more of a location you keep it in where no outside gas of any kind can get to it, should stay that way forever. OF a few years anyway.
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paralyse's Avatar
United States
12057 Posts
 Posted 05/04/2016  10:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Not all metallurgical reactions require the presence of oxygen or other components of room air such as nitrogen; some reactions can even take place in a vacuum.

Since keeping your coins in a vacuum is impractical, the best way is to keep them in a controlled-humidity environment, with filtered air, and minimal exposure to light, in sonically-sealed plastic slabs. The surfaces should be completely rinsed with a solvent such as pure acetone and then blown dry with micron-filtered, dehumidified compressed air prior to encasement.

Intercept Shield holders are also good way to protect your coins / or Dansco's version of the same slipcase for their albums.
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890

"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
Valued Member
Canada
402 Posts
 Posted 05/04/2016  11:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cdngmt to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Don't know if this is any help, but I was told storing coins near a natural gas furnace will yield rainbow and or strongly toned cois ( after at least a few years from trace gas byproducts of the burning (but then again I'm in CAnada and winters and heating seasons are likely longer here...
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paralyse's Avatar
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12057 Posts
 Posted 05/04/2016  11:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I can see that. Sulfur is a byproduct of natural gas combustion (in the form of sulfur dioxide) and also used in small amounts as an odorant / detectant along with mercaptans and thiols; given sulfur's reactions with silver coins it is likely. But here, most natural gas is processed (to protect the integrity of the transport piping), and has a very low sulfur portion. This may not be the case in Canada or in some very rural areas where field gas is used instead of pipeline gas. Most modern, efficient furnaces, almost all of the combustion gases should be exhausted through the flue and via the air exchange - flue tubes. If there's a cracked HX/sooted burner/etc the higher levels of CO2 and resulting health risk would be a much bigger issue than the toning of some silver coins...

Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890

"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
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Andrew99's Avatar
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 Posted 05/05/2016  1:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Andrew99 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If you want to tone coins rainbow colors, get a burlap sack, soak it in sulfur, and put the coins in it for 5-10 years. Thats the way the ones that are out there now got done and there's no reason to believe it wouldn't work again.
Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts
 Posted 05/05/2016  9:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add just carl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
If you want to tone coins rainbow colors, get a burlap sack, soak it in sulfur, and put the coins in it for 5-10 years. Thats the way the ones that are out there now got done and there's no reason to believe it wouldn't work again.

No need to do that. If you use the search tab on this forum for toning, you will find many, many faster methods to tone a coin.
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