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Capped Bust Half 1828

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United States
522 Posts
 Posted 12/15/2012  8:29 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add johnny676767 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
OK- My first CBH. This is one of the ones I mentioned buying on ebay the other day. I really couldn't capture the look in hand but here are scans for details and pictures to get an overall sense. I wasn't sure from the online pics but in hand I think it's great. Please don't tell me it's a fake (unless it is).

What do you think? Thanks.


Capped-Bust-Half-1828

Capped-Bust-Half-1828

Capped-Bust-Half-1828


Capped-Bust-Half-1828
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amida17's Avatar
United States
4897 Posts
 Posted 12/15/2012  9:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add amida17 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Nice. Looks about XF40 to me. From a quick glance it is one of the squared base, small 8's Overtons of this year.
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vermontensium's Avatar
United States
16681 Posts
 Posted 12/15/2012  9:54 pm  Show Profile   Check vermontensium's eBay Listings Check vermontensium's eCrater Listings Bookmark this reply Add vermontensium to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
No red flags as to a fake.
XF40 sounds about right.
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D0ubl3Eagle's Avatar
United States
5854 Posts
 Posted 12/15/2012  11:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add D0ubl3Eagle to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Looks like a EF-40.
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United States
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 Posted 12/16/2012  12:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add johnny676767 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I got Overton's Die Varieties and am trying to use it for attribution. This is my first go at this and I'll tell you it isn't easy. I can't seem to match up an obverse with a reverse. I realize my scans and pics aren't great for this and I think I need more than a 10x loupe, but if anyone has any ideas, I'd love to hear them.

Here are my observations with the real coin:

Obverse:

S1 C maybe LH
S7 LE-CHb (the innermost point-I'm assuming this is the reference point)
S8 LE
S13 UE and nearly touches curl
828 look repunched on top?

My guess: Overton 10

Reverse:

S in states appears smaller
A1 LH
A2 C
A3 C or LH and connected to milling with double die crack (not sure if this is a die crack).

My guess: ?

Other notes: Rim reads "FIFTY CENTS ORALH A DOLLAR'



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jeffrose's Avatar
United States
1432 Posts
 Posted 12/16/2012  09:04 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jeffrose to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Nice one johnny. I will agree with EF-40. I will have to get the book out later to give you an idea of variety.

Quote:
OK- My first CBH.

Just so you know, this will probably not be your last. This guy will sit on your shoulder and whisper in your ear "Buy more, buy more!"

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cipster's Avatar
United States
2364 Posts
 Posted 12/16/2012  2:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cipster to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Nice coin - I agree with XF40

Here's my approach to attributing bust halves - just my opinion of course... I look at the reverse T/I alignment first to narrow down the possibilities. Here's a web link that helps me get started. http://coinzip.wix.com/bust-half-do...tribute/1828

There are 23 varieties in 1828 and T/I helps you narrow it down to a much smaller number of possibilities.


Quote:
My guess: Overton 10


I'm not sure if this was your typo or was that your guess of the obverse die number? The Overton numbers are three digits and I don't see this coin as O-110. If you meant Obverse 10 I don't see that either.

I may have some time later to look more closely but in the meantime have fun and good luck.

Member ANA and EAC

"You got to lose to know how to win".
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 12/16/2012  2:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
OK, let's talk Bustie attribution.

First of all, we find that in 1828, Overton varieties have general groupings based on the date - curled 2's, square-based 2's, and two sizes of 8's. Your coin has the square-base 2 and small 8's, immediately eliminating everything up to O-109. That's a good start.

The very first thing I look at when attributing a Bust Half is the relationship between the T in STATES and the I in PLURIBUS. This is a standard pickup point which is listed for almost all Overton varieties. Your coin looks to me like it would be called "right sides of T and I in line." A slight variation of that description could be possible; it wouldn't floor me if the proper variety is called "I centered under T."

So now, starting with O-110, I go through each variety looking for that specific relationship before I even look at the obverse.

O-112 looks promising. The reverse was used on O-111, which describes T-I as "I centered under right of T." This doesn't seem to fit, but it's possible. So now we look at the obverse star locations, and they seem to be a very accurate match. The description of the date looks good, too - maybe this is the correct obverse, but not the reverse? Hmmm....

O-113. Same obverse, different reverse. One with the right sides of T-I in line. Spidey sense tingles. All stated attributes match, save the comment about "unfinished die work between olive leaves," but that's possibly masked by the color of your coin. Looks very, very good.

Except the obverse is described as maybe having the stars drawn towards the rim. Yours doesn't show that. Letdown, but not the end of the world.

OK. A quick run through the rest of the varieties seems to indicate that no other obverse is a match for star location. We're tentatively settled on O-113 (112 is possible); time for the final step.

I open the Heritage Auctions webpage. As a member there (which you should be also, as membership is free) I have access to their huge archive of high-resolution images from past auctions. I search for 1828 O-113 in the archive, and it returns 42 results(!). Lots of huge pics to compare your coin to.

The results are disappointing in one sense. Every example I look at seems to show the drawn stars. So I flip to O-112, and even though the T-I relationship is possible, I immediately notice one standout feature that disqualifies this variety: the last three letters of STATES. TE seems to be rotated counterclockwise a bit, making the S seem low. Your coin is definitely not this reverse.

Back to O-113. I check every single coin, and finally find one with the stars not drawn, from a sale back in 2006. OK, it's possible.

I load a huge image of a PCGS AU55 reverse, and compare yours minutely to it. Letter relationships, the shape and location of 50C. Something stands out: the two lines drawn from the second A in AMERICA to the rim.



Second confirmation: the first S in STATES seems rotated a bit funny compared to the adjacent T.



It's settled, as far as I'm concerned. Your coin is O-113, and a very early die state to boot. This is a fact which should be remembered and emphasized when/if it comes time to sell this coin - it's a feature that a Bustie collector would find of interest.
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CoinsKelly's Avatar
United States
3453 Posts
 Posted 12/16/2012  5:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinsKelly to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you SsuperDdave for that explanation! Just book marked this for future reference (the 'Bay seems to be calling now...).
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 12/16/2012  5:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You're welcome.

Something I forgot to add: The edge lettering being messed up is a known and relatively common error with Busties. The lettering was applied using a Castaing Machine - which amounted to two parallel bars, each with half of the lettering. One bar was fixed and the second movable, so the planchet (before striking) could be rolled through it using the movable bar for force, to apply the lettering. Slippage was common.
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Hondo's Avatar
United States
1211 Posts
 Posted 12/16/2012  6:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Hondo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
SsuperDdave, your explanation is very impressive (you're a detective!) and your taking the time to share your knowledge is greatly appreciated! Awesome!

Beautiful Bust Half. I really do like it.
Pillar of the Community
United States
522 Posts
 Posted 12/16/2012  7:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add johnny676767 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for taking the time for the step-by-step explanation. I really appreciate it.
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Tjmcman's Avatar
United States
225 Posts
 Posted 12/16/2012  9:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Tjmcman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You guys are amazing.
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Moe145's Avatar
United States
8904 Posts
 Posted 12/17/2012  12:51 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Moe145 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
SsuperDdave -
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