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 Replies: 171 / Views: 41,499 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7630 Posts |
Serial.... I, and several others, have repeatedly asked you WHAT your submitting dealer (yes the IDIOT submitting dealer that undervalued the coin!) has offered you for his mistake and to make this right. Either you haven't talked to him or he told you "it's PCGS's problem!".
You can rant, rave, post and repost on other sites and the bottom line is still the same. Yeah, PCGS messed up your coin and they are offering you exactly what your submitting dealer valued the coin at and exactly what the submission agreement THAT HE SIGNED calls for.
You need to wake up and smell the coffee and realize that your major beef should be with the dealer.
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Pillar of the Community
 Australia
539 Posts |
its still up on collectors universe
and PCGS are aware of this thread now
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
539 Posts |
I am working on that and will let you know. so settle down, however I still blame PCGS.
They have acted deceitfully in trying to get the coin off me WITHOUT telling me that they would only pay $15. (had I sent it then it never would have come back in the slab!)
they have cancelled the certificate without my permission. again I will quote what another person has written so well
"In my view, canceling the certification record is tantamount to revoking its certification status and the underlying PCGS guarantee. If this is the case, I don't see it as a smart move so much as I see it as a completely inappropriate one especially given that PCGS is breaching its contractual duties to the collector who is a third party beneficiary to the contract between PCGS and the dealer (i.e. once the coin has been certified and PCGS has accepted the fee, a contract is formed and the PCGS guarantee applies under the terms of the contract). PCGS cannot and should not be allowed to unilaterally revoke its guarantee (which attaches to the coin) and rescind the contract after the fact. If the collector wishes to sell the coin, he or she is free to do so, and the PCGS guarantee should still attach"
and bottom line is, THEY DAMAGED MY COIN!
I want a replacement coin of equivalent grade and there is one out there (look at population report), they just have to go look for it to make me whole
it seems to me that people are being a bit defensive of PCGS based on contractual rights they have.
What about just doing the right thing by me? you know in the interest of building a relationship with a person who up until this happened had 100+ coins to submit to them of a similar grade and value. heck I would have even accepted a "store credit" with them at the start of all this
now I find them to be untrustworthy and immoral and I am sure I am not the only one.
i wouldn't even be surprised if they have people/staff defending them on this site to deflect the negative PR this will cause
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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
Quote:
They have acted deceitfully in trying to get the coin off me WITHOUT telling me that they would only pay $15 Theyre assuming youre the submitter and read the forum. Its standard not to offer anything until the thing in question is confirmed. They probably get calls all the time of people claiming they did something to try and get money. Quote:
PCGS cannot and should not be allowed to unilaterally revoke its guarantee (which attaches to the coin) and rescind the contract after the fact. If the collector wishes to sell the coin, he or she is free to do so, and the PCGS guarantee should still attach" Thats all very true up until the point you notified them that there was a problem with it right out of grading. Once aware they want to fix it not have it passed off for what the label says. Like you said its clearly over graded now so removing it protects the value of the properly graded one when they assume the other to be defective. Quote:
it seems to me that people are being a bit defensive of PCGS based on contractual rights they have. Life is based off contracts thats how society works. Contracts are made for exact situations like this. Had the dealer valued it properly I dont think there would have been an issue with value. Most people seem to be happy with the offers they get from the guarantees and they paid out half a million dollars on 211 coins. Like I've mentioned the simple fact is the dealer tried to game their system to keep his cost down which is the exact reason they have that payout situation. They arent going to assume 100 percent of the risk for people to pay them as little as possible. Even though they dont have a ton of employees they have done billions of dollars worth of coins. When you do that much business you have to have stated polices for how you handle situations or people complain theyre playing favorites and its unfair. I also tell people get your own membership. If you got your own and send the rest in on yourself its highly unlikely youd have any problems and if you did it would be covered. When you go the dealer route though its authorizing someone else to act on your behalf. Its the same as giving someone power of attorney. Youve handed over the control and the decisions they make from that point on apply to you which is what were seeing here in regards to the submission form. Were all sympathetic to the 1 in a million freak accident that happened to the coin, but a contract is a contract |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10982 Posts |
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You have points. Although you do seem to be missing the other issue at hand. Perhaps the policy should be changed for a situation where a coin has been graded, and then damaged. This completely changes the fair market value of the coin. Not really. The value of the coin was listed as $15 when submitted. The submitted coin was graded by PCGS as a $15 coin (per submission tier and shipping/insurance rates). PCGS didn't magically turn a $15 into a $500 coin by grading it. The value was the same before and after grading. We're not talking about the damage, that's a separate issue that needs to be addressed. With the dealer who valued it at $15. |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
4594 Posts |
Quote:
Theyre assuming youre the submitter and read the forum. Its standard not to offer anything until the thing in question is confirmed. They probably get calls all the time of people claiming they did something to try and get money. No, PCGS knows exactly who submitted what. Their contract with the dealer requires that the customer sign the contract and the dealer represents to PCGS that the customer did. In the 9th post here, OP claims that the dealer unilaterally chose to value the coin at $15 ( Posted 11/07/2013 06:19 am): Quote:
yes the PCGS authorised [sic] dealer did submit it with a $15 value
however lets not lose sight of the fact that PCGS are the ones who damaged the coin.
and I paid for the coin to be valued in the $300-$3000 range of service with PCGS
I was not trying to avoid any fees and I paid the higher amount because I knew it would grade well Later on, I pointed out: Quote:
Interesting double standard - you quote something from the web site as if it was holy writ, you ignore the clearly written legal limitations on the signed contract... Which is still true. OPs abject refusal over 11 days now to accept that any of the blame falls to the dealer has me wondering about the veracity of any statement made because that would be the 1st thing PCGS checked and the 1st thing any settlement or legal action would check - the facts. And that has me wondering! Why? Because there is no actual benefit to ANYONE (OP or Dealer) to have valued the coins at $15 each vs. $299. Both $15 and $299 would qualify for economy pricing with a savings of US$108 for the 9 coins you submitted. And the international return postage is exactly the same for 1-10 coins up to $100,000 in value.  -----Burton 50+ year / Life / Emeritus ANA member (joined 12/1/1973) Life member: Numismatics International, CONECA Member: TNA, FtWCC, NETCC, EveryCountry (online) coin club Owned by three cats and a wife of 40+ years (joined 1983) Author: 3rd Edition of the Sample Slabs book, https://www.sampleslabs.info/ |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1949 Posts |
Serial, again, I have to agree with everyone here, as I said before it's terrible what happened to your coin, but your issue is with the dealer, not with pcgs on this one.
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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
Quote:
And that has me wondering! Why? Because there is no actual benefit to ANYONE (OP or Dealer) to have valued the coins at $15 each vs. $299. Both $15 and $299 would qualify for economy pricing with a savings of US$108 for the 9 coins you submitted. Thats struck me as odd as well. So has deflecting any blame from the dealer for how it was valued. The only real savings 15 vs 299 creates would be shipping insurance there which couldnt be more than a dollar or two. You mentioned the dealers are supposed to have the customer sign as well, do they have different submission forms or could he also have just submitted it all like it was his? Either way it doesn't change my opinion I'm just curious. |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
1295 Posts |
He valued it at $15 and they are going to pay him $15 (and presumably refund the grading fees). I am not sure what's not to understand?
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
539 Posts |
I am currently working it out with the dealer based on all your advice, I believe that he may come to the party on the matter so I am not commenting on this atm. I will update this soon
however I stand by what I said about PCGS damaging the coin and returning it in a slab then treating me with contempt. it took almost a month to get PCGS to even tell me that they would not pay more than $15 after repeated request by PCGS to return the coin to the for review, then they would work things out with me.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7630 Posts |
The more I look at the all the pics I'm now wondering if the coin was struck on a poorly annealed planchet resulting in some hidden delamination issues. If the coin went through some stress during the encapsulation process the weak metal may have given way and popped off..... Resulting in what we see now that looks like a huge gouge. Just a thought. Until the coin is popped out of the holder and examined by experts we won't know for sure what went wrong.
Good to hear that your dealer has opened the door to resolution. I hope it goes well.
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
Quote:
I'm now wondering if the coin was struck on a poorly annealed planchet resulting in some hidden delamination issues. If the coin went through some stress during the encapsulation process the weak metal may have given way and popped off. All the same, there is clear vertical displacement of metal, up and away from the coin. Even if it was a lamination ready to break - of which there is no evidence in the True View image - it would have taken a serious impact to bend the lamination tab upwards hard enough to break it. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1080 Posts |
westernsky -- now that you mention it and I look at the pics again, you may be on to something
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3843 Posts |
Shame on PCGS and the PCGS authorized dealer for not making this right immediately. I can't believe that they aren't seeing the hit that their reputation is taking over this is costing them far more than what they would have had to shell out to fairly compensate the OP. Insufficient quality control and apparently no ethics either.
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
539 Posts |
The dealer who submitted the coins on my behalf has made good on his part in this today. I would like to note that I did not approach the dealer till late in the game as I gave PCGS a month to make things right. PCGS initially insisted I post the coin direct to them despite my request to return the coin via the submitting dealer. It wasn't till I insisted on them advising me of the potential settlement value of the coin that they then did not want to deal with me and referred me onto the submitting dealer. I did not expect PCGS to settle me for the coin without the coin being returned to them for inspection, and I made that clear. I just wanted to know what I was to expect and work out if it was worth wasting any more of my time doing so. As suggested by members on this forum I did make contact with Don Willis, he questioned my motives in raising this issue in public and asked: "You really want to do this over a coin that you valued at $15?" He also stated that all I had to do was send the coin back to them, as I was asked. I feel that there is more value in letting the coin community know that this does happen and I have since learnt that it has happened to at least another person as posted on the below link by pruebas http://forums.collectors.com/messag...&STARTPAGE=1What people need to take from this is that it would appear that PCGS can cancel a coin's cert's without consulting/advising the owner and that PCGS's quality control systems do fail. Now I am not sure whether I need to take the above quote from Don Willis as a threat, or if it is the usual bully tactics of a big corporation? Thanks to everyone for their interest and advice to date. |
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Posted 11/18/2013 02:37 am
