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 Replies: 55 / Views: 6,244 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1903 Posts |
There is an excellent movie out there by Orson Wells called "F for Fake". It deals with the counterfeit art market, but has some relevant messages for what the spirit of this thread is about. *spoiler alert...this is best watched with no kiddos around as there is some nudity*
Edited by unholyroller
11/14/2013 11:10 am
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1949 Posts |
@unholyroller- That movie is a perfect example for this thread. I think what everyone can agree to is that there's a huge grey area with this. I personally have no issue with people doing that, but at the same time I don't mess with any coins I end up with- If I don't like how it looks, I either don't get it in the first place or sell it
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Valued Member
United States
211 Posts |
For me, this topic is mostly about pricing. In todays market a cleaned coin is devalued by so much that it is worth less than a coin of the same type several grade tiers below what it would be if it was original. The problem is that by removing the cleaned surface through wear, you can sometimes increase the value of the coin.
I personally would just rather have the coin in its cleaned state, but many collectors buying patterns would indicate they do not feel the same way. Generally speaking, if I have an XF-cleaned coin, I would say it's worth a VF price. If I had an MS cleaned coin, I would say it's worth an AU price. Depending on the pricing rarity curves of coins, this can change, but that's the general trend fo rme.
I try to avoid getting too weighty with ethics statements on this subject. I think most people can agree that the less metal loss the better and the more original luster the better. If you do any activity that decreases either of those two values, you are probably going in the wrong direction.
On the other hand, if this is about making money, then there is no grey area. It's either red or black!
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1081 Posts |
I think one big issue here is the assumption for those against this practice that a coins condition is static and not dynamic. The idea that once a coin is pulled from circulation, its condition no longer changes. This is a completely wrong assumption IMO. For example, the color designation with copper cents. I've seen slabbed coins go from red to red brown to even almost fully brown. While this would have a negative effect on the value of the coin, the idea is the same. The condition changes, whether you want it to or not. Silver and copper will oxidize whether you want it to or not. The only way to stop that is to put it in a vacuum, which is unnatural.
What we as collectors think of as natural really isn't. Is a blast white morgan natural? Heck no. Is trying to preserve the surface in a oxidized free state natural? Of course not. It requires some type of intervention on our part to do that. What is natural is the normal wear and environmental effects associated with what coins are meant to do, buy things. This includes carrying them around in your pocket, have them contact other coins, hands and surfaces.
What is unnatural for a coin is to be put into a plastic flip, cardboard holder, slab or album. We want to so desperately stop the natural chemical processes that affect metal. How is that different than sticking a "problem" coin in your pocket? You are interevening to alter the coins condition. Really, the difference, if one, is really that putting the coin in your pocket changes the condition from static to dynamic, the natural outcome for a coin. How many circulated coins were once gunked up, cleaned, scratched etc. only to be put back into circulation. Years later they are plucked from circulation this time by a collector, the problem eliminated, who then stops the natural process.
Who says a coin's status must not change once it has been "collected"? IMO, what is more natural is allowing the condition to change, whether for better or worse. So for those of you who say this is wrong, look to your own collections and see how many of your coins are slabbed, housed in albums, flips or sitting in a drawer? What is more natural?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
8521 Posts |
I have no problem with someone artificially wearing down a coin but if you do it to profit I just feel its dishonest. Throw it in a vibratory tumbler that you use to clean brass, throw some walnut shell media or corn cob media along with some coins to rub against. Really there's no difference, they accomplish the same thing. Just one would probably be faster and the other lets you feel good about yourself.
Oregon coin geek.....*** GO BEAVS ! ! ! ***
Edited by 52Raymo
11/14/2013 8:52 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
Theres a huge difference between a pocket and tumbler though. The whole idea from a profit standpoint would be to get it to get a non details grade. A tumbler likely doesn't solve that problem and cleaned usually gets better prices than damage it seems.
The profit aspect of it really is overblown though. In the most ideal situations you may end up recovering what a couple hundred maybe a grand or two with the grade loss to get it to look uncleaned. But its going to take you many many months/years. I dunno about you but I'm not walking around with coins worth thousands in my pocket or even several hundred. Then consider the amount of time it takes and the payoff isn't that great.
I tried to make a lowball ike and got about a month or two in it and was looking at it thinking are you kidding me this things barely changed. It takes a very patient individual and certainly more patience than I have to make lowballs or saved cleaned coins. If it was as easy as that there would be a lot less cleaned coins floating around
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1903 Posts |
To me, pocket pieces, lowballs, or any coin that requires effort to change its appearance has it's place if both parties know good and well how the coin got to the current state. You are essentially creating an end product though personal effort that someone else desires and knows good and well it didn't get that way by accident...is akin to hobo nickels. We know they are intentionally altered, but altered because there is a market for the end product. In a previous thread there was a lively debate about a "crackout dealer" on ebay. So if this dealer broke out a "details" coin from a holder and tossed it in a tumbler overnight, or carried it in his pocket for a month, does he still need to divulge it had a "details" designation before he cracked it out? After all...the months worth of pocket wear has altered it from the state it was formerly housed in a holder thereby making the previous grading not relevant. What we are all talking about truely has little to do with WHAT we do, but more so HOW we represent it. Deep down this conversation is all about "honesty vs money" and depending on where your motivations stand at any given moment you will fall to one side of this debate or the other. There is no right or wrong, just which choice lets you sleep easier at night. And I must add, the cliche "sleep easier at night" phrase is not meant here to poke at honesty as it usually does....I have been dirt poor before, and sometimes being about the money can certainly help you sleep at night as well! :-) |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
8521 Posts |
A pocket full of change is just a mini tumbler. Lol I mean really if you think about it.
Oregon coin geek.....*** GO BEAVS ! ! ! ***
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3253 Posts |
Perhaps we should also remember that we on the cusp of scan technology that will "fingerprint" individual coins for security purposes. Intentional pocket wear that we find acceptable to remove a cleaning will also be used to mask stolen goods.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5212 Posts |
I never knew I was supposed to carry my pocket piece in the same pocket as other coins to wear it down quicker. I guess my pocket piece has lived a sheltered suburban private school life the last 2 years. Maybe that is why it ran away 3 weeks ago and I can't find it. I think this goes the same was as artificially toned vs intentionally toned. If you throw your coin in a fry pan with olive oil or whatever to get a rainbow effect it is intentionally toned. If you throw you coin in a cherry wood box *(tried it but didn't lokk good after 2 months) or on a wood ledge in direct sunlight (didn't work) a capsule with sulphur it is intentionally toned whether it looks it or not. If you drop a coin under the seat of your car and it sits there for a year and the carpet interacts with the surfaces you did not intentionally tone the coin but a TPG may disagree. I think the fault lies with the owner of the coin and the same applies to crack out artists who take details grade coins and play dumb upon resale. Same thing in the watch collecting community. Lots of doctored watches on ebay coming out of the Philippines and some accurately described as such but there some who buy them up and try to reflip them on ebay or elsewhere to the unsuspecting newbs as all original. |
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Posted 11/14/2013 12:45 pm
