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 Replies: 34 / Views: 3,947 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1571 Posts |
Ladies, and gentlemen, (if there be any of either here) :-))), I think it has happened many times before, and will happen, over, and over, until the one who "owns" the collection, leaves some indication of what it's value is, (while still among us), to prevent just this type of scenario from happening. No I haven't done that, and probably will kick the bucket, before I get around to it! That does not say we shuldn't take a little time to give the "heirs" a hand. As for the ebay sellers, they could care less whether or not the buyer is getting a fair deal, ( from my experience with them). Now in the case of a coin shop, there is a little difference. THey have to maintain a "good will" status, and a bad deal like either of the scenarions mentioned, would eventually cause that to be damaged. I think it would be in the best interest of both to ask for a "second opinion", before accepting ANY offer. It would actually be the best thng to try and get the eventual heirs interested in the collection. If that not be the case, because they don't have any interest, or knowledge of the subject, then Donate it to your favorite forum! At least it will be appreciated, and maybe even continued, as part of their collections. Dick |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts |
Regardless of what is or what is not supposed to be, my only experiences with similar situations is people will take advantage of anyone, anytime, anywhere. I've gone to oh so many coin shows where I've witnessed people getting screwed by a dealer. At one show a dealer bought a bag of Mercury dimes for double face value. I've seen this at gun shows, gun stores, knife shows, camera shows, etc. This is why so many people find fortunes at garage/yard/estate sales. They buy something for pennies that is worth hundreds or even thousands. Ever watch the Antique Road Show. One flea market person I know has two warehouses full of merchandise he has acquired by buying up entire such sales. He has a mountain of valuable items and never told anyone that was selling what they have. At one such place he purchased an entire collection of very old 78 RPM records for $5. I too once purchased an entire jar of old cents for a fraction over face value. Did I tell the seller. Not a chance. When people try to sell their homes, cars, boats, etc they always ask more than it's worth. Why? Because they do the same to others as they would do to them. NO, alls far in love and war. Sorry but that is reality. |
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
quote:
First...the scenarios presented:
In both cases the dealer has an obligation to tell the seller what he/she has. This has to do with those old-fashioned values of ethics and integrity, on top of basic honesty. The second scenario, where a neophyte, with no knowledge, is depending upon the dealer to be treated fairly, is the most clear cut.
The first scenario, with a "knows less than he thinks" seller, is a bit more difficult, perhaps, but still I feel the dealer should be fair.
In both cases, the dealer is the expert; the sellers are something less.
Now...in Dave's case, with online auctions. The buyer (Dave or any one of us) does not have the same obligation. The situation is fundamentally different because the seller is offering a coin (or coins) to a host of different buyers simultaneously, in the expectation of getting a fair price. The successful buyer must outbid all competitors. Potential buyers may or may not be experts, and may or may not make fair offers for the coins for sale.
Couldn't have put it better myself. Now, to address arthrene's link, concerning cherrypicking from a dealer: I do not consider cherrypicking to be "stealing." A dealer projects himself to the public as an expert, by definition. This is a far different scenario than some poor widow who obviously doesn't know what she's got - a dealer is selling this product for profit, and the onus is upon him to be aware of what he's selling. If he doesn't, then he's not doing his job right. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
717 Posts |
I agree to the comments made to the link above from arthrene:
"When you go to a dealer and you are expecting him to purchase your collected coins, you should be able to expect that he will be honest and give you the fair and proper value of your coins. Even if you yourself do not know the value. That would be why you are going to him in the first place, right?"
"It should be considered stealing if a coin dealer knowingly takes advantage of novice customers."
"It would be unethical for a dealer to KNOWINGLY underpay or mislead a novice entering his/her store to sell a coin or collection."
"If a novice collector brings his collection to a knowledgeable dealer and has extremely valuable coins in his collection I feel that the dealer should not take unfair advantage of the situation to rip him off but negotiate a reasonable fee or percentage to market the coins for him."
I have personally observed my local coin dealer at his store deal with dozens of novices who come in to sell him coins, silver, gold, etc. The very first thing he does is pull out a current buying guide & show the seller what the "buy" price is. I've seen him shell out several hundred to several thousand dollars to sellers who had no idea as to the value of what they were selling. They would have gladly accepted a fraction of what he paid. But he dealt with them honestly & fairly, & still left himself a good profit margin. Watching him deal has earned him a trusting customer - me!
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2335 Posts |
I'm not sure who SuperDave is quoting, but I agree with the quote & the sentiment behind it 100%.
One of my major peeves is when someone sets up a scenario like this. The little old lady is a more sympathetic victim, but that doesn't make her MORE of a victim than the arrogant youngster. No matter how you slice it, in both cases the dealer took advantage of someones lack of knowledge. It may be easier to rationalize taking advantage of the arrogant youngster, but that doesn't make it right.
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Pillar of the Community
Germany
1064 Posts |
What would you do if you thought the coin dealer was a little dim? I was recently in a coin shop in Germany and wanted to buy the 1950s saarland coins. He offered me the 50 frank for about half price and then the 100 franc for a little over the price I thought it was worth, so I took the coins, paid for the two coins what the one coin was worth, then found out at home that the 100 franc coin had a filed edge, but not really bothered. Most of the guys coins were overvalued, I ignored most of it and will only go back if I see a stupid mistake he is making!!
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2600 Posts |
I agree, that it would be a better world if everyone acted with complete professionalism and compassion. That, however, is not reality. People act in their own "enlightened self interest". Even our own posts indicate such, i.e. "What is your best buy". We are proud of making a good deal and apparently do not consider this to fall into the unethical area we are discussing here. Why, though, is this any different? Maybe it is level of good deal. I buy a coin for $50 that I can sell for $65, it is a good deal. I buy a coin for $50 and can sell it for $200 is it no longer a good deal but a rip-off? Yes, lets take care of little old ladies, but at some time we have to start taking care of ourselves. If you have a valuable collection, record values. Leave a name, at least, of someone your family can trust to help if they have to deal with your estate. When you step into the free market place, you step into risk. The world is not going to take care of you.
Jim
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts |
Jim1953 said it all.
In a perfect world what some think is rightious would be the norm. However, this is not a perfect world. If you found a coin dealer that is honest, that is like saying you found a used car salesperson that is honest. It is possible, however, few and far between.
I have noticed that the smaller the town or city, the more honest people appear to be. However, here in Chicago, doors are never left open, many places windows have bars, not many walk down streets at night alone. So far I've met a few coin dealers that I wouldn't say are dishonest, but as a general rule, they all take what they can from whoever.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1173 Posts |
I don't really care if everyone else is doing it, or if "that's the way the world works." There is a fundamental difference between right and wrong, and taking advantage of someone is fundamentally wrong.
The dealer has every right to make a profit...but when an heir shows up on the dealer's doorstep, asking for an opinion on the worth of a collection, that person IS trying to determine the honest value of his/her inheritance. Everyone accepts that the dealer is going to pay wholesale, and try to resell the coins at retail. That's business. But to try to buy the collection substantially below wholesale...that's immoral in my book.
If you go to a garage sale and buy something that you value much more highly than the seller, that's different. Again, the seller puts a price on an item, hoping that someone out there will buy it, and then opens the sale to all comers. If you get there first, and get "a deal" more power to you. The relationship between seller and buyer is much different than in the two scenarios presented.
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Valued Member
United States
144 Posts |
At that garage sale, what if it's a coin, a baseball card, or an antique, and you know it's worth much more?
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12437 Posts |
I could care less if something marked with a very low price and might be worth alot more. The fact is that the seller has put a price on the item and that is what he/she thinks it is worth, not what you the buyer tells them you will purchase it for. If the garage seller thinks a $20 double eagle is only worth $20, so be it- I will be all over that like white on rice. I see nothing unethical about this as it is not my job to save people from their own ignorance and stupidity. I know that may come off as harsh but you can usually save yourself from your own stupidity by doing the most basic of research and not doing that is just plain lazy IMO.
However, if they asked me to make an offer on said $20 DE, then they would be relying on me for my "expert opinion". It would be unethical to try and offer $20 for it since I obviously know it is worth much more. I would have to offer something at least close to the $600+ range to be fair.
In summary, the manner in which the price is determined makes all of the difference in whether you are getting a bargain or whether you are ripping someone off. Seller setting a low price- bargain. Buyer offering low price- unethical ripoff.
Edited by biokemist6
08/10/2007 11:36 am
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Rest in Peace
United States
2668 Posts |
If someone posts or states a price, I accept that they are more knowledgeable than I about their possessions.
If I am the 'professional' I work backwards from my sell position and make them the most reasonable offer I can.
Yeah, I gave up on real estate.
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Valued Member
United States
280 Posts |
From the article "Joe: Sure he paid for the coins, but he didn't pay a fair price based on what he knew they were really worth. And that's a form of stealing."
I would have loved to have been there so I can ask the dealer if once he realized a coin was worth $100 instead of $10, how much was he going to mail back to the person he bought the coin from in the first place. Afterall, once he realized he made a mistake and underpaid the patron, he should be obligated to go back and share his newfound information with them.
In my experience. A dealer prices everything so that he makes a profit (however small it might be). When a dealer is taking a loss, there is usually a big sign that says "SALE: 20% off" to get people in the store.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
882 Posts |
I think we are all missing an important factor in this scenario. What kind of dealer is it? Does this dealer have 5 million dollars in inventory? Or does he have a small shop with not much to lean on? My local dealer in Minot, *** Staff Edit ***! He has literally millions of dollars in inventory and I have personally watched him deliberately try messing with several young card collectors and old ladies with old coins and paper money. Like $40 for a Woodchopper $2 bill. Or $100 for a - ounce gold piece and $600 for an ounce. Doesn't make sense. The last person I saw getting screwed by him, I chased after her down the street to show her "the light".
If a dealer is well off and has the resources, yes he should be informative and generous. I don't think well off dealers should offer stuff prices for mediocre type coins just because they already have hundreds of nice shiny ones.
However, if a dealer is just starting off or doesn't have the resources to be 100% upfront, he still should be informative and offer AT LEAST 50% of retail. I would personally feel bad if I stole some ones coins from them by offering too low of prices. Also, if you try and rip them off, and they get a second opinion (by someone honest), you will sure look like an idiot.
Ty
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Pillar of the Community
United States
882 Posts |
I may stand alone on this, but if your getting a KILLER deal, you tend to be quiet and glide through the transaction. But when someone in front of you is getting a KILLER deal and you "observe" for as long as you can before you suddenly have the uncontrollable urge to scream, "DUDE YOUR GETTING SCREWED!". I hate to rain on peoples parades, but many times on Craig's List or ebay I will message them asking what their offers have been. They tell me. Then I let them know what they should do and definitely shouldn't do (all in my own personal opinion, of course). Is this like a little pride mixed with greed, or what? |
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Replies: 34 / Views: 3,947 |
First Page
Posted 08/05/2007 10:07 am
