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 Replies: 15 / Views: 2,459 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
949 Posts |
Was it just my imagination or did someone post a pic of an As of Caracalla with a lion holding a thunderbolt in its jaws? I hope it will come back, because I wanted to discuss the various ways a lion figures on ancient coins. Part of the goal of such a discussion would be to consider the question of how much the connection of lions to royalty was the result of the identification of so many ancient royals with the myth of Herakles and the Nemean lion. Here is a very late Roman coin featuring a lion on the reverse, in which I don't think the allusion is mythological so much as a pun on the name of the emperor.  But we could also consider the significance of the lion on some of the earliest Lydian coins or the lion and bull coins of Croesus. |
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Moderator
 United States
34418 Posts |
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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Moderator
United States
23731 Posts |
What makes you think this is Caracalla? I not ever come across a coin of his that looks like this. The coin looks much later almost in the style of a Byzantine coin. The CON could also mean Constantinople. Interesting coin, going to try and do some research on it.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
949 Posts |
Sorry for the confusion, Ron. My coin is a long way from being an issue for Caracalla. It's an AE4 of Leo I 457-474 (RIC X either 667 or 674) and it is indeed from Constantinople.
For the coin of Caracalla, I was referring to an item posted earlier in a thread that disappeared. I was sorry to see it go, and was hoping to stir up some conversation about its imagery. The part of the title in quotes was most of the title in the missing thread, hence the Caracalla reference.
In comparison to the coin in the original thread my coin provides a very different kind of answer to the question, "What does the lion mean on this coin"
If the owner of that coin would be so kind as to post it again, it could be interesting.
Thanks for the old link, Spence. Too bad it's about the thunderbolt, since I was after the lion. Anything like that out there?
Edited by lrbguy
06/02/2017 11:56 pm
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Moderator
United States
23731 Posts |
Thanks for clearing that up for me. Didn't think to check that it was Leo I though the Lion is pretty much a dead give away.
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
701 Posts |
I have a tiny Hadrian coin from Caesarea Maritima that has a Lion with Snake above it.
I will dig it out for a picture for you later.
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
2100 Posts |
There certainly is an As of Caracalla with a lion carrying a thunderbolt but I ond't own one. I have a Probus if that helps.  |
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Moderator
United States
34418 Posts |
Quote:
I was after the lion Still not sure that I am giving you what you want, but there has been at least one lion-themed thread here too: http://goccf.com/t/244109&whichpage=1With regard to threads relating to the coinage of Caracalla, there have been several, but in my brief skim of them, I didn't find a lion with a thunderbolt. Here is one of the most recent: http://goccf.com/t/252554&whichpage=1"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
701 Posts |
Apologies, clearly not what you were after.
Edited by tenbobbit
06/04/2017 04:26 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
949 Posts |
Yes, Martin, that's the same lion figure I saw on the Caracalla piece. The fact that it is used by Probus is int4eresting in its own right; Caracalla was not the point.
Thanks too to Spense for the link to the old lion thread. I had forgotten what all was in there, but it has quite a few images that I think would be good for more discussion than just "Oh looky what I got." For example, what does it mean (or seem to mean) that Probus and Caracalla gravitated to the same lion image? Probus chose to follow the lead of Caracalla because ....
The image of the thunderbolt is significant inasmuch as it was the emblem of high authority in several ancient pantheons, for Zeus/Jupiter, Baal/Hadad, Marduk, and Set, High gods of Greece, Rome, Ugarit/Canaan, Babylon and Egypt (the whole Fertile Crescent.) The association with the lion blends images of might and authority.
Lydia claimed Herakles as an early ancestor. The lion on their earliest coins, especially the one with the sunburst on the obverse, links regal authority with what in particular?
Can anyone here point to some good information behind these ramblings?
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
2100 Posts |
I know that the reverse type was used by others too. Philip I, Philip II, Gallienus, Carausius, Maximianus Herculius. Caracalla seems the most prolific user. I know of varieties walking left, walking right and even a quite animated leaping variety from Caracalla. The symbology is even repeated on some bronze Napoleonic period medals.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
949 Posts |
It's not an As, but here is an ant for Caracalla (one of his early pieces) I just added to my collection. It is the same lion motif as the original poster had put up in bronze.  I may post it again after it arrives and I can do a photo. Edited by lrbguy
07/04/2017 10:12 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
564 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
949 Posts |
Same motif, Justin. That's the denarius from the same year.
Not sure, but aren't you the one who put up the original coin? An As?
If so, can you show us that again? (If not, please accept my apology.)
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Pillar of the Community
United States
564 Posts |
Do you mean the Tyre tet of Caracalla with an eagle reverse I posted with my other acquisitions? The one I posted earlier with permission I do not own, I'll was wanting it until I spent the last of my allowance on two Greek/Sassanian coins.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
949 Posts |
No, sorry. Not that one. The one I recall very specifically had this lion motif reverse, and it was on an As. But I kinda think the person who posted it took issue with the list over something and departed. I hope I'm wrong, but so far they haven't brought it back. Oh well, the motif is what really caught my attention. Lion and thunderbolt seems a common enough but odd justaposition within a Greco-Roman pantheon.
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Replies: 15 / Views: 2,459 |
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Posted 06/02/2017 7:35 pm
