Histiaia Euboea Coin Question - Page 2

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Author	Replies: 23 / Views: 3,997	Page: of 2

DavidUK Pillar of the Community United Kingdom 2624 Posts	Posted 06/07/2018 10:30 am I am well aware of much of the content of that video hence my sentence about no consensus about the consequences... but lets not diverge into a political minefield. With regards to certification it always makes me laugh when people place grave importance on a "Certificate of authentication" which is not worth the paper it is written on. I am not one that trusts the authority of anybody on any topic unless their argumentation and evidence is sound. It is true that a little knowledge is dangerous and mistakes are possible but the coin itself must be testament to its own authenticity the piece of paper or even the encasement from a third party cannot be trusted in my opinion. Report this Post to the Staff
louisvillekyshop CCF Advertiser United States 1306 Posts	Posted 06/07/2018 3:36 pm Augustus; I have no doubt at all that Barry Murphy is probably right on most if not all of the coins he includes in the image he put up long ago as you say and that his expert credentials are as strong as they can be. But if he can not say he personally knew the forger who showed him he indeed created out of thin air this style I don't respectfully know how he can say there was never an original coin of this style that was copied. That level of certainty that there was never a coin with this particular hair style and pellets is quite amazing to be sure of. Perhaps he is referencing that none of this style were ever found or more correctly seen before the forger arrived on the scene. That he can say based on countless year of study of the coin series before this forger event was noted. But I certainly feel bad for any of these with this style, even less than 1% of all those out there, that might be real and are darned completely because of the style. Report this Post to the Staff
louisvillekyshop CCF Advertiser United States 1306 Posts	Posted 06/07/2018 8:31 pm Bob L: OK question: This coin I can't do much with. Just gonna hold it forever. And Barry Murphy says that hair and pellet patter never occurred in real coins. So before I do this I'd like an opinion please sir: If I very carefully document myself breaking the coin in half modern silver should look like modern silver. But what if I broke it in half and saw crystallized silver as you see with ancient coins that break? Or would people just say obviously the forger took a real ancient piece of silver and pressed an image on it or something else I can't even imagine? Hate to do this so famously, film myself doing it, and have people just say that was completely silly to do, we all know it is a darned coin period just give it up etc. Am I crazy? In fact if this was a modern fake, would it even break? Or deform instead like a metal? The coin is useless to me anyway. Can we just sacrifice it to the Gods of science this way? Report this Post to the Staff
Kamnaskires Pillar of the Community United States 7066 Posts	Posted 06/07/2018 9:23 pm Joe, the coin is of course yours to do with what you want. Sounds like you don't maintain a "black cabinet" as some dealers do. Your previous post suggests that despite Barry's misgivings (I saw he has at least one more from that die on the page Warren linked to), you still feel the coin may be kosher. If that's your position, then why not just add it to your personal collection and feel good about it? I don't think that would constitute "uselessness." Or you could just stick to your guns and list it. I've seen plenty of listings through the years that were up front regarding alternative opinions about the authenticity of the lot for sale - they typically include a reasoned argument for authenticity by the dealer, alongside an acknowledgement that alternate opinions exist (or may exist). To cite just a few: https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/mu...Default.aspx ("It could be merely a modern imitation, but it does appear to be struck rather than cast.") https://cNGCoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=76715 ("Although the pieces could be the product of a more modern manufacture, the characteristics of their flans and state of preservation strongly suggest they are ancient.") https://cNGCoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=309399 ("...Recognizing that the coins were metallurgically compatible with the ingots, rather than the coins from these cities, he (H.S. Kim) suggests that a modern forger probably made the coins from the ingots to increase the value of the hoard...We would propose a different interpretation. The differences in style and fabric that he noted are not dispositive; these coins are products of a mint that previously had only...Thus, these differences could easily be explained by the coins being a novel production at a mint not well versed in electrum production...") We've probably all seen lots of these types of listings through the years, from good dealers like these two. The fact that they are up front like this adds to their credibility, imo. Anyway, I'll be curious to hear what you decide. Best wishes. Edited by Kamnaskires 06/07/2018 9:51 pm Report this Post to the Staff
louisvillekyshop CCF Advertiser United States 1306 Posts	Posted 06/08/2018 12:26 am Bob; To rephrase the question, first let me say that when you noted, "Sounds like you don't maintain a "black cabinet" as some dealers do. " the photo below is all fake. I certainly do have a black cabinet I use for talks at the Temple etc about coins, but again to rephrase the question, I can't sell the coin, so I should just break it no problem, but I do again want to ask: Before I break it, if I find crystallized silver and it breaks like an ancient coin does that mean to you it was indeed ancient or was that silly as no matter what I try, x-ray fluorescence at work for example, this is just darned goods and no chemistry or experiment will ever change that opinion of the community? What do you expect to see if I try to break it Bob? Report this Post to the Staff
Kamnaskires Pillar of the Community United States 7066 Posts	Posted 06/08/2018 08:11 am Well, Joe, I have no idea what others would conclude from your proposed experiment, but I would likely see, well, just a broken coin. I'd be dependent on (and very interested in) your own empirical observations and conclusions. I think it would make for a very interesting paper or article, actually. Report this Post to the Staff
louisvillekyshop CCF Advertiser United States 1306 Posts	Posted 06/08/2018 12:19 pm Bob; Well there would have to be some parameters and a decent plan. I'd have to have a control for example of something modern etc. My research students are using a decent microscope set up in the lab for some tar sands works right now but as they say, for every hour of lab work there is 2 hours of planning. I was kind of hoping there would be a "if I see blank that means modern" etc. But if breaking a modern pressed fake and an ancient coin would show the same things that would not lead to a good plan for me. So many ancients of silver break crystallized and are not repairable at all as they come apart in a few smaller pieces easily. Like I expect if there were an ancient flan it would not bend at all, just break easily with force. Hate to plan an experiment and it mean nothing etc. Report this Post to the Staff
FVRIVS RVFVS Pillar of the Community United States 3443 Posts	Posted 06/10/2018 06:16 am Twenty five years ago I took a metals class and determined to cast an 18k gold ring for myself. With a portrait stolen off of a denarius of Augustus. Everything went fine but I soon realized that 18k does have certain drawbacks notably that it scratches and 'dings' rather easily. Having had a background in hardware manufacture I settled on a simple solution. Heat treatment to harden the gold alloy. I found a book in the public library (no internet back then !) and pulled a nice recipe for the heat treatment of gold alloys. Again all good and well ! After giving my beautiful ring of Augustus the required bake in the oven I proceed to quench it. The ring immediately fractured in the cold water. Close examination showed a lovely crystalline structure inside the band. My lesson learned I had to remake my wax ring and repeat the entire process over. In 14k gold !!! Silver can also be heat treated to a crystalline state. In my opinion your experiment will not be very conclusive. BTW Is the earth round like a ball ? Or is that just a theory ? I heard once (long ago) that it sits on top of a giant turtle Report this Post to the Staff
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