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 Replies: 31 / Views: 5,984 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3755 Posts |
There is absolutely NOTHING about their calling something artificial or questionable other than OPINION. A chemicals test will only tell if something like sulfur is present in high quantities. And if the coin was stored in an old album or shoe box then that is to be expected and their little test is useless. Toning can also happen in swipes or hand patterns simply by improper handling. If someone lives in AZ and has their grandpas collection in a non temp controlled storage unit or the attic then it can get the same toning one finds from "cooking" a coin. I left a silver dime in my cars back window all summer and it toned the same way as applying heat on a stove. So it comes down to opinion. I dont take into consideration what ANY grading service has to say about toning. They are good for telling me if it is real or not and identifying varieties and nothing more.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
992 Posts |
Also, they seem to sometimes DQ it for no reason other than they know you will resub it... (more grading feees generated)
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Pillar of the Community
United States
992 Posts |
I've sent the SAME coin in 3 times before it straight graded.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
857 Posts |
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.They are good for telling me if it is real or not and identifying varieties and nothing more.  , I personally find they're sometimes better at that than they are at grading. |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1267 Posts |
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The first thing I thought of was the sniffer test. Also, they see a lot of coins and they get good at what they are doing.
I have looked through a few coins in my day and can spot an "oddball" in seconds.When you see enough of what is and what isn't, it becomes second nature.
John1 |
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Valued Member
 United States
277 Posts |
@John1
I could see why a "sniff test" may have been what gave the coin the questionable toning grade. It's possible after a chemical analysis of the coin's surface, extra chemicals typically not seen on normally toned coins and instead found on artificially toned coins were found on the coin, and is why the coin was given the questionable toning grade. Wow, if PCGS does tests like these on each coin they receive with any kind of toning, I call that dedication to their trade. I'm curious to know now whether PCGS has a science lab department where they run multiple different tests on many coins to determine what counts as authentic toning and what counts as artificial toning. Would love to see all the information they've compiled over the years to identify counterfeits.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1267 Posts |
Newguy22, most of the doctored coins are caught by the graders, and are identified almost immediately. The wrong color sequence, lack of elevation chromatics, spotting are just a few of the tells they look for.
They come across something out of the ordinary, it's going to be questioned.
The coin in this thread just doesn't look right. The colors, and the way they creep over the devices (like the stars) is out of the ordinary. Coupled with the odd toning being on both sides (like heat would do), and you have a questionable coin.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
857 Posts |
Idk, I've seen obviously artificially toned coins in straight grade holders, I just don't get how a coin like this is considered artificially toned.
Then again, I also don't understand why it would matter as long as the toning looked right either.
Edited by Numis-Northerner
05/25/2020 2:31 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
992 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1267 Posts |
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Then again, I also don't understand why it would matter as long as the toning looked right either. Would a thumbed, or puttied coin be okay with you so long as the doctoring was well done? How about an added mint mark that looked legit. Or a perfect replica from China, they are getting better. I've been collecting toned coins for over 25 years, and have a pretty good idea of what I'm looking at. I've also learned that a second opinion from a TPG doesn't hurt, nor does a third opinion with the credentials that John Albanese has. |
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Valued Member
United States
277 Posts |
I agree with hadleydog on why knowing a coin has natural toning is important. Natural toning takes years and years to develop. The beauty in many of these toned coins can be appreciated today because coins in these toned states were not widely available to many collectors in the years before. If I have a collection of brand new, blast white silver eagles, I may have to wait 20-40 years before they develop toning patterns seen in many classic silver dollars today, and still the toning patterns they develop might be different because people store their coins differently today than 50-70 years ago. This is why it is important to be able to differentiate between authentic natural toning and artificial toning. Many people will doctor coins to give them the appearance that they have the same toning as a 100-120 year old coin because they want to make a fast buck. Luckily for us, the patterns toning develops on a coin can be unique and specific to a particular coin and series, and so there are numerous "symptoms" that artificially toned coins have that can tell graders that they aren't authentic. I guess the business could be similar to being able to tell the difference between high quality and cheaply mass produced whiskeys/wines.
@Hadleydog Wow 25 years of collecting toned coins! You must have a very interesting collection!
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
857 Posts |
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. Would a thumbed, or puttied coin be okay with you so long as the doctoring was well done?
How about an added mint mark that looked legit.
Or a perfect replica from China, they are getting better See, and I fail to see how those are comparable, if a coin looks nice and original and I like it, then someone shows me a video of NCS conserving it, should it now be viewed as less than, since it had a finger print removed? Toning and authenticity are two far different things, if you see a coin with nice attractive natural looking toning, and then you find out someone had managed to tone that coin in a few weeks using some sort of 'special process', or if someone was somehow able to speed up the natural toning process by 2000% would it really matter if the results were the same? I know this is all hypothetical hyperbole, and if you're somehow able to tell that the coin in this thread is artificially toned (which if you actually can, then I have to say, I am more than impressed  ). Maybe it's just because I see toning at best as an indifference to the coin, and at worst environmental damage, since it happens post mint, but I know I'm in the grand minority with that opinion, so I'm trying to figure out what IS acceptable with toner collectors. |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1267 Posts |
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See, and I fail to see how those are comparable, if a coin looks nice and original and I like it, then someone shows me a video of NCS conserving it, should it now be viewed as less than, since it had a finger print removed? A good question. If a coin is conserved, say to remove a fingerprint, the coin is being subjected to a process which is most likely also removing a thin layer of the coins surface (that's why they refer to dipping as dip'n'strip). This impairs the luster, which can not be revived. So to me, a proponent of originality, the coin is no longer as desirable. Quote:
Toning and authenticity are two far different things Actually, it was the authenticity of the toning that was called into question. Quote:
if you see a coin with nice attractive natural looking toning, and then you find out someone had managed to tone that coin in a few weeks using some sort of 'special process', or if someone was somehow able to speed up the natural toning process by 2000% would it really matter if the results were the same? Another good question. It seems that whenever the natural process of oxidation is artificially accelerated, the resulting toning never quite looks right, (and is often unstable). Usually it the color progression that is off,or a lack of elevation chromatics, or pull away..... One of the biggest tells is difficult to explain. Enhanced toning always seems to float on the coins surface, while natural toning appears as part of the coins surface, because it is. Originality....... That's why bust half collectors like them crusty. Old gold collectors like them dirty. And toned coin collectors like them non enhanced.   Edited by hadleydog
05/25/2020 9:18 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
857 Posts |
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.Actually, it was the authenticity of the toning that was called into question. True, my bad. Quote:
.Another good question.
It seems that whenever the natural process of oxidation is artificially accelerated, the resulting toning never quite looks right, (and is often unstable). Usually it the color progression that is off,or a lack of elevation chromatics, or pull away.....
One of the biggest tells is difficult to explain.
Enhanced toning always seems to float on the coins surface, while natural toning appears as part of the coins surface, because it is. Thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge of this area of numismatics with me, I suppose as long as the color isn't obviously artificial, that it would a lot harder or impossible to 100% definitively determine whether a coin is AT or NT. I won't deny though, that the coin that this thread is about does still look rather nice even as an AT coin, I guess that's a worrying sign for me, not so much for those who can spot them as AT though but still worrying nonetheless. |
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Valued Member
United States
277 Posts |
Great discussions from everyone! Because of all of you, I have learned quite a bit from this thread. On the topic of toning and AT, I have no idea how a silver eagle could get this toning pattern naturally: https://www.greatcollections.com/Co...MS-67-Toned. The patterns on the reverse are incredible! Like wow, what a pattern. Hard for me to think what kind of environment was this coin stored in for this pattern to develop. I guess it's natural toning? What do you guys think of this coin? Also, I'm not trying to promote GreatCollections or anything. Whenever I buy coins, I often buy from them, and so I go through their inventory quite often. They sell a wide variety of things, and some of coins they offer can be quite unique. |
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Replies: 31 / Views: 5,984 |
First Page
Posted 05/24/2020 7:23 pm
