Ottoman Gold + Countermarks For Identification

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Author	Replies: 6 / Views: 2,369
norantyki Valued Member 404 Posts	Posted 02/03/2021 04:34 am Hi All! Some years ago now, I bought these three Ottoman gold coins, all bearing the same countermark. At the time, I was told that the mark was of Bulgarian origin, which owing to the crown and letters, I found plausible (they were also bought in Bulgaria). I must admit that I purchased them more because I found them attractive, and because there are three all bearing the same marks. I have tried researching them many times over the years, and never manage to make any progress. I understand that jewelers used to mark gold coin in the Ottoman Empire, but the crown / nature of these seem to be less informal than typical Ottoman hallmarks. I was wondering if perhaps if anyone could offer any help in identifying the mark, and also perhaps give a definitive ID to the host coins (as I always seem to make mistakes with Ottoman coinage). Many thanks in advance for your help. Report this Post to the Staff

tdziemia Pillar of the Community United States 7967 Posts	Posted 02/03/2021 8:35 pm What is the size? (diameter and mass) Since you've researched it a lot already, you've probably considered this possibility for the host of the third coin if the size matches? https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces52505.html Also found this for the host of later type, regnal year 19, (which should be smaller than coin 3). https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=6216160 Though the differences between Coin 1 and Coin 2 make me a little suspicious. I couldn't find anything on the countermark. Edited by tdziemia 02/04/2021 08:21 am Report this Post to the Staff
norantyki Valued Member 404 Posts	Posted 02/04/2021 03:13 am Hiya @tdziemia, thanks for your efforts, completely forgot about diameters! They are 17mm, 20mm, and 22mm respectively. Your first link doesn't appear to work, but the second is actually what I had believed to be coin #2 (owing to size and obverse script). Also, as a note, I believe that coin #3 is KM#616, or a Rumi Altin of Mahmud II, but the photos in Krause are so bad, and people online oftentimes get it so wrong, that I am very much open to suggestions. I'm going hope against hope that someone can pull a rabbit from their hat for the countermark :/ Report this Post to the Staff
tdziemia Pillar of the Community United States 7967 Posts	Posted 02/04/2021 08:29 am Link is fixed. KM-616 is listed in Numista with diameter 23 mm and mass 2.35 g. It was not produced after regnal year 15. KM-635 which I think is a match for your first two coins is listed in Numista with diameter 20 mm, 1.61 g., and was only produced after regnal year 15 (accession date is also in an unusual place)https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces36945.html The toughra side of your coin number 2 looks a bit odd to me, but maybe the slight offcenter strike is affecting my perception. I did not see any of these in acsearch with the counterstamp, but they are often found with plugged holes. Maybe this stamp was a creative way to "upgrade" a plugged hole, since on some of those the back side of the stamp looks like a different material? . Edited by tdziemia 02/04/2021 09:00 am Report this Post to the Staff
norantyki Valued Member 404 Posts	Posted 02/04/2021 10:24 am @tdziemia - I think numista might be off with these, as in the Krause, they list additional regnal dates. As for diameter, I feel that the plachets were not constant on these Ottoman gold issues, as I have seen the same type listed in different auction houses with varying diameters. Generally though, I think that (cutting through the confusion), we are agreed that #2 is likely KM#635, and that #3 is likely KM#616. This leaves little #1. As for the c/ms, I am certain that they are not over plugs, as there is evidence remaining on the reverses of the devices affected by the punch, and no evidence of any insertion. Where there appears to be a difference of colour was caused in my photos by the light refracting off of the surface. Edited by norantyki 02/04/2021 10:27 am Report this Post to the Staff
tdziemia Pillar of the Community United States 7967 Posts	Posted 02/04/2021 2:07 pm There is some confusion in naming of the types between Numista and NGC. KM616 is called "Rumi Tek Altin" in Numista and "Rumi Altin" in NGC. KM-635 is called "Cedid Adli Altin" in Numista and "New Adli Altin" in NGC. But the regnal dates seem to be in good agreement. I did find this one example which may have a stamp around 12:00 (in addition to a hole elsewhere) though it is not referenced in the description, and I cannot tell if it is similar to yours: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=1944220 Yes, I also considered that was a photo artifact that the color looked different. Anyhow, it gave me an opportunity to learn a bit more about these types! Report this Post to the Staff
norantyki Valued Member 404 Posts	Posted 02/05/2021 02:09 am @tdziemia - many thanks for your assistance. I still fond these Ottoman issues beguiling, so I think I'll limit myself to the three I have. I suppose the c/m will just have to remain a mystery until the planets align. :/ Report this Post to the Staff
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