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Is Provenance Important? Add Value?

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 Posted 02/11/2025  10:33 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add floyd5175 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Assuming the coin is properly certified as genuine by a respected certifier, how important is an ancient coin's provenance? Does a provenance add any value to the coin (assuming it wasn't traced back to Caesar's pocket)?

I ask because as I look for my first ancient coin purchase, I've come across some coins with provenances of varying depth.

Thanks again for all your expertise!

Floyd
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Sap's Avatar
Australia
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 Posted 02/12/2025  5:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
In terms of value, most surviving provenances don't really add much value. You'd need a coin to be in the hands of either a famous person or at least a famous collector to have a significant impact on value. John Quincy Adams was a coin collector (as well as being a US President) and most of the ancient coins from his family collection are fully provenanced back to him, and those coins fetch considerably more at auction than an equivalent but unprovenanced example. Here's a Doug Smith article on FORVM about it.

For most collectors and most provenances, knowing the provenance is "interesting", but not really "important". It becomes important if it's an old, established provenance and if/when you ever decide to leave the country and take your coins with you.

Many countries have proscriptions against importing or exporting ancient coins without a pre-1970 provenance. These laws and regulations are in place to attempt to combat smuggling of looted antiquities, and ancient coins are "Antiquities" under these laws. If caught attempting to cross the border of such countries with ancient coins, it's a case of guilty until proven innocent: if you can't prove that the coin wasn't looted, then the authorities will assume that it was. A receipt from a coin dealer is insufficient proof, as there is no guarantee the coin wasn't smuggled by the dealer (or whoever sold it to the dealer). Evidence that the coin was being bought and sold prior to 1970 is the strongest evidence you can supply for a coin's legality in such cases. And that's where the provenance can help.

The United States has signed Memoranda of Understanding with numerous countries regarding the interception and repatriation of looted imported antiquities sourced from those countries. So even if you are travelling to a "safe" country without such laws (such as Britain or Australia), you may run into trouble on your return home, attempting to re-import your own coins into the United States.

"1970" is the chosen date because that was the year that the UNESCO Convention on the Means of Prohibiting and Preventing the Illicit Import, Export and Transfer of Ownership of Cultural Property came into effect.
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 Posted 02/12/2025  5:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Provenance is always nice to have, but it doesn't often add value unless it can be traced back to part of an important collection (a well-known museum, a famous collector, a famous auction/sale, a hoard find, etc.) and even then the amount of value added is subjective.

The vast majority of ancient coins are not "certified" by anyone.
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 Posted 02/12/2025  7:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add floyd5175 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting point regarding the import and export of "antiquities," in this case ancient coins. How does a buyer in the US know if they are buying a coin that is legally in the country? I doubt many of the coins sold in American coin stores and auctions have any provenance as far back as 1970.
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 Posted 02/12/2025  8:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add january1may to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Interesting point regarding the import and export of "antiquities," in this case ancient coins. How does a buyer in the US know if they are buying a coin that is legally in the country? I doubt many of the coins sold in American coin stores and auctions have any provenance as far back as 1970.
I suspect that for the coin stores, at least, in the vast majority of cases the seller does not know either, and most of the exceptions are probably coins that the seller already owned in 1970.
Even then - while, as it happens, Doug Smith did keep photographic records of his collection in the 1960s, most ancient coin collectors probably didn't... and many who did probably lost them later.

There's a reason there are so many attempts to make that kind of thing less far-reaching. Unfortunately so far it's only getting worse; there's been a MoU signed with Ukraine recently that covers multiple sweeping categories of Eastern European coinage, much of it only tangentially connected to Ukraine.
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Australia
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 Posted 02/12/2025  9:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Interesting point regarding the import and export of "antiquities," in this case ancient coins. How does a buyer in the US know if they are buying a coin that is legally in the country? I doubt many of the coins sold in American coin stores and auctions have any provenance as far back as 1970.

In short, they can't, and they don't - unless there's some kind of provenance with the coin. When a seller in the US sells an ancient coin already in the US to a US customer, no crime is committed, because buying and selling ancient coins isn't illegal or even regulated in the US - it's only importing them that's the potential problem.

This is of course the reason why coin smuggling into the United States is such an issue - once the coins arrive on US soil and clear customs, there's little that the source country can do to get them back. They have to be very valuable, high-profile coins for the source nation to bother going through the expensive and convoluted American legal system to try to repatriate them. Most famously in recent years, an Ides of March gold aureus, struck by Brutus after Caesar's assassination and worth millions, was repatriated to Greece after Greek authorities proved it was illegally dug up in Greece and smuggled out of that country. The British coin dealer who sold the coin through an American auction house had lied and made up a fake provenance to try to cover up the theft; the lie only came to light when the alleged previous owner publicly denounced the coin, saying it was never his. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/22/...eid-mar.html
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 Posted 02/13/2025  11:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add louisvillekyshop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
After 20 years of selling coins on ebay, and starting at a dollar each no reserve so a real way to gauge results for your question on that platform, if you have the old estate tag from an auction house or known dealer, 1970's or 1980's even, yes, you add value as people know the coin was inspected by an auction house in my opinion before they sold it. And when I have a coin with tattered paper from the 19th century that is pen and ink, I think people pay a lot for that material that comes with the coin for the same reason. So maybe in an auction house it has no real difference in the value you get as you trust CNG to sell a coin to you they inspected, but from my world perspective, it makes a huge difference.
Edited by louisvillekyshop
02/13/2025 11:18 am
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 Posted 02/13/2025  11:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add travelcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
When collecting ancients, ALWAYS keep a record of who you bought from and the original flip and/or paperwork. As mentioned in this thread, it undoubtedly adds value. How much? Well that's subjective. A lot in my opinion -

Whether it be from a well known private seller and/or collection, storefront or auction. Case in point, I would have never picked up a Pertinax denarius, but the provenance was the deciding factor - Dr. Donald Zauche of Westminster, Maryland, a very well-respected dealer and scholar.
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