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 Replies: 25 / Views: 2,655 |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
14454 Posts |
Here is what NGC says about the first strike designation
NGC Authentication of First Strikes Coinage
Collectors have always sought out coins of special significance, and one way that a coin can be distinguished from another is by the date that it was struck. Included in this category are coins of early or first release. A general term for these coins is first strikes. There are several different types of first strikes and limited edition coinage which can be noted on the certification label by NGC. In all cases, this special designation is reserved for coinage with accompanying documentation, and NGC has adopted the following conventions for its certification.
American Eagle First Strikes
NGC designates as first strikes bullion issue American Eagles (Gold, Silver, and Platinum) that are submitted in their original sealed mint packaging, with intact date tags indicating that they were struck and packaged prior to January 31 of the enclosed coins' dated year.
Proof American Eagle First Strikes
NGC designates as first strikes proof bullion issue American Eagles (Gold, Silver, and Platinum) that are submitted for certification to NGC within the first month of release by the US Mint. All coins received for this designation must be sealed within their original Mint shipment packaging and with accompanying packing slip inside.
First Strike Certification
When first strike appears on a NGC certification label, it indicates that the encapsulated coin was struck during a first strike ceremony at the U.S. Mint. When the U.S. Mint releases a new coinage design, frequently a special event is held during which notable figures related to that coinage will be invited to strike the first of these coins.
Numbered First Strike Editions
On several occasions, NGC has received coinage with official mint documentation stating that a particular group of coins were among the first examples produced. These will be represented on their certification label indicating that the encapsulated coin belongs to this edition. The size of the edition is also included (e.g., ONE OF FIRST 1000 STRUCK; ONE OF FIRST 50,000 STRUCK). This designation can be applied to foreign coins when satisfactory supporting documentation is available
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
Bryan1315 - Thanks for that explaination. I had not realized until I read that statement what a First Strike actually was. Now I am absolutely convinced that the designation is a worthless marketing ploy with the possible exception of the First Strike associated with a new die issue, when a truely limited number of coins is involved. I had always thought it referred to the first strikes to come from a new die pair - which would indicate a near pristine strike, with full die frost present before wear removes the fine die surfaces. But if they accept ANY bullion coin struck before Jan 31st - there will be some well fatigued dies by that time. A die wears very quickly showing tiny flow lines, fissures and even cracks sometimes after a few hundred or at most a few thousand strikes. I just ran across an interesting article on production rates at Denver since the conversion to the new single die horizontal presses. The complete article may be found here: http://www.scvhistory.com/scvhistor...age0206a.htmBut I will reduce the article to a few highlights. First - Denver can produce MILLIONS of coins a day. Anywhere from 27 to 30 Million a day but peak production ran at 50-60 Million a day in 1999 and 2000 when the mint ran 24/7. Second - dozens of dies are made PER DAY at Denver because ... Third - a die lasts between 70,000 and 2 million strikes. Therefore the conclusion to be drawn is that most dies do not last more than a day or two - tops. So I ask exactly how many different coin dies would be used in 31 production days and how many strikes from worn dies are actually part of the FIRST STRIKE group? Does this really mean ANYTHING? The two categories that are possibly of special value are the coins made at a First Strike Ceremony or a Numbered First Strike provided the total made is actually low, say 100 to 1,000 copies tops. A First Strike run of 50,000 coins, mentioned by the Grading Service could in fact be 50,000 out of a possible total die life of 70,000. That worst case indicates 71% of all coins would be first strikes. At the other end of the spectrum would be 50,000 out of 2,000,000 or 2.5%. Of course that postulates one press. If multiple presses are involved - how many different die pairs are used? Once a second die pair enters the picture - How can there be any added value? Wouldn't any new die made at any point in the year produce an identical strike? The whole thing seems so artificial that it is truely meaningless in my opinion. I guess I might ask WHO CARES? I for one do not and would not pay one cent extra for a First Strike Bullion coin now that I know what it really is. I might pay a small amount for a coin from a Special Ceremony if one special die pair was used to make presentation copies - but that's it. Does anyone agree - or disagree? |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4589 Posts |
well Thank you all for your info, once again its always very informative and from all sides of the spectrum which is what makes it valuable to me
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Valued Member
United States
236 Posts |
I am guessing this thread got started as result of the "First Strike" article in today's Coin World. It make me angry when I think about it- and Swamperbob here has made the proper assessment. It is a disgraceful marketing ploy- all for the big time dealers. A pcgs spokesperson made the statement that First strikes were only available to dealers.- You have to purchase your first strikes from him- So what does that tell us? In the first place, the only way you can acquire a so-called "first stirke: is from a dealer-- So what does that tell you? Someone on this thread- said what I have been thinking- that in years past- it was more fun before we had all this MS (@#@$)grading practices- Back when all we had was good ole Brown and Dunn- But now- look at all the -'so-called professionals' we have in this hobby- I give you valid proof here that this third party certification stuff is a bunch of hooey-- The ex-ANA President Scott Travers author of several books- was probably the first one who advocated cracking slabs' Sure-thing- you can make a lot of money cracking slabs-then send it to another third party grader to get a higher grade-(and he gave the odds) This told me all I needed to know- (stay away from the slabs) as they were created for the sole purpose of more money.. An example in today's Coin World illustrates this point vividly-- on one page an 1881-S Morgan in MS62 is advertised at 84.94- across on the next page is an 1881-S Morgand dollar advertised in BU for 54.95. Now isn't that a kick? What are we? -A bunch of dummies!! No-there are simply some people gullible enough to believe they must have certification -- So my point is- watch your coin purchases carefully and from dealers you know-and can trust. But in the long run, you must be able to trust your own judgement- and that comes with experience.--Don't fall for the fads!! Ok that is my nickels worth- Which aint worth a dime anymore. Dewey |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1703 Posts |
I actually started this thread because of a dealer I buy from had some 2006 Silver Eagles NGC MS70 coins, some marked "First Strike" that were $2.00 higher than the others. Looking at them, even under 10x I could see no difference,but I'm no expert either.
I thought I would ask what people here thought and as usual I received exellent input.
Thanks,
Terry
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1247 Posts |
quote:
Originally posted by TLS5933
What will be the difference in value in 20 or 30 years? Is it worth to pay a little more for the coin now?
Thanks.
Well, just take a look at how well the fads from 30 years ago are doing today. Franklin mint medals, silver art bars and *especially* world proof sets were all the rage in 1976. How are they doing today after the increase in silver price is factored out? Before silver took off I was buying 70's art bars for just a dollar or two over melt. "Not much of an army for you"--Lt. Brumshead ZULU  I remember those Cook Islands dollars with the blushing Queen on the obverse and stubby the fertility god on the reverse. They at least have some amusement value today as they did back then but have they gained much in price value over the last 30 years? There's been so many fads in coin collecting over the past 50 years you can actually build a "Great Expectations" topical collection from it all.  BTW you can buy 70's issues of Numismatic Scapbook on ebay for a few dollars each, look at those ads, look at what those WOW! "investments" were selling for then and what they are selling for now on ebay. I'd like to talk about the virtues of TPGs and "market grading" but I have to clip my toes nails right now. Edited by longnine009
05/14/2006 6:44 pm
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Pillar Of The Community
3147 Posts |
The bottom line is simple. The Mint changes dies continueously so first strikes are available all year long on every coin produced. Most collectors know the first coins available every year are the bullion coins and the grading companies have attempted to capitalize on that fact by dreaming up this first strike joke. As long as they can continue to get collectors to give up their hard earned money for stupidity they will continue to dream up outlandish ideas that hold NO merit or numismatic value. Many a collector will really be saddened when the day comes to sell their cherished "first strike" which was actually signed by old whats her face and it was such a long time ago no one remembers old whats her face! Plan on losing some money and not just on first strikes as thousands of slabbed coins are joining the joke every day!
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4589 Posts |
quote:
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Originally posted by scoutjim99
well isn't cameo on business strikes evident of being firts strikes
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quote superDave
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True. However, that's a visible, quantifiable difference. Prooflike coins have been created by die polishing during the middle of a die's run, too, and they're also worth a premium.
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so they are created during the middle of a dies run, not the begining!!
I always thought they were first strikes < thank you for that eduction
Edited by scoutjim99
05/15/2006 01:26 am
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
Scoutjim, it's tough for a mint to create enough good dies to do a whole production run - back in the day, you might get 50,000 coins from one die, and if you were planning on a million coins, that's 20 die pairs. They did everything they could to extend the life of a die, which is part of the reason for the die cracks I love so much.  Sometimes, when a crack or some other damage appeared on a die (maybe something getting caught between the die and the planchet, marking the die), mint workers would polish the surface of the die to remove the mark. The first few (maybe 10, maybe 500, depending on how good the polishing was) coins minted after a good polishing might be prooflike. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
SuperDave - when I was first ill and confined to home I searched MS rolls of 1996 and 1997 Philadelphia Quarters for die breaks and stray marks. In the process, I identified 305 different dies used for the production of 1997 quarters. The longest sequence I put together was 7 distinct die states involving three dies. I read someplace that in 1997 the mint used around 900 die pairs for the year long production run.
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Replies: 25 / Views: 2,655 |
First Page
Posted 05/14/2006 01:13 am
