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 Replies: 46 / Views: 4,095 |
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Forum Dad
 United States
24174 Posts |
quote:
As far as being another seller, the view should be "who cares". A seller has no business telling another seller what to do.
If you have a B&M store and want to put up a sign out front thats 6 x 30 and the township doesn't let you, then another coin shop opens right next door and puts up a 6 x 30 sign, you would mind your own business? Your township is a venue and so is ebay. Everyone in the venue should play by the same rules. quote:
If the judge and jury ( ebay) think it is ok (they obviously think it is in the rules otherwise they would have NARUed him) then what is this seller doing wrong?
It's not obvious. The listings have to be reported. It's as simple as that. quote:
I will pose this question then. If I order a 1964 penny worth AU$0.10 direct from Downies and they charge me AU$8.00 registered post (which they would do), is Downies being unethical?
Big difference. They are their own venue. quote:
Just because the guy is selling on ebay does not change the fact that he is doing exactly what Downies do off ebay.
Again, big difference. If you open a store in mall, the mall makes the rules. If they say you must be open from 10 to 9 you have to. You sign the agreement when you open the store. Downies doesn't operate in a mall, ebay sellers do. He's deliberately breaking the rules to gain an unfair advantage over rule-abiding sellers. |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
853 Posts |
There are a number of sellers on ebay that do this and have been doing it for a very long time. I used a reference to Downies in an earlier post. Downies sell on ebay and habe been for a very long time. Downies still charge a minimum AU$8.00 postage fee on all ebay sales. If you troll ebay listings in almost every category you will find sellers that charge postage greater than actual costs but avoid the roth of ebay. This seller has feedback of over 25000 so I would be suprised if no-one reported him for overcharging postage. The same goes with Downies and a large number of other sellers. As Susan said shipping of $20 or more would fall into the eyeline of ebay. Less than that appears to be ok with ebay. Although I do not agree with what this guy is doing (or Downies when they sell on ebay for that matter) I do not think he is doing anything different than a large number of other sellers. On this issue I will agree to disagree and allow someone else to join the debate rather than impress my view. |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
4870 Posts |
I will say again, just because profiting off shipping has been going on for a long time does not in any way make it right.
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Rest in Peace
United States
2684 Posts |
For FedEx and UPS, the shipping fees don't seem to be that outrageous; I typically pay $7 to $10 for UPS shipping of a single small item. HOWEVER, (BIG "however"), I suspect both FedEx and UPS have discounts for high volume shippers and this may be the way he makes his money, even if it's only, say 25 or 50 cents for each transaction. As everyone has already pointed out, this is against ebay's TOS and is unethical. I am also suspicious of the DVDs and CDs themselves and the fact he doesn't ship via US Postal Service. Red flag. Could these be knock-off counterfeits? They gotta cost him something over one cent. By not shipping via USPS, he is avoiding Federal level legal problems if they are, in fact not legitimate DVDs and CDs. Something stinks. Judging by the numbers of negative feedbacks (I didn't dare use ToolHaus - it would take too long to download all those negs and neutrals), it appears he has quite a few unsatisfied customers. In any instance, the bottom line is he's a Bad Seller. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4870 Posts |
I was just searching some auctions just for the purpose of finding shady shipping cost practices.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4870 Posts |
A couple years back, I had won a Standing Liberty quarter on ebay. The shipping was $2.50. Well when I got the package, it came postage due! The seller just used a regular letter envelope and a 37 cent stamp! I paid for more than enough postage too!! |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
There is one issue here I don't see clearly expressed. By breaking any rules that are set down by the controlling party, which in this case is ebay (Remember it is ebay's business not ours) why are people willing to deal with a THIEF? Would you go into a restaurant with a box of food and start selling it to other customers in the store? The owner of the "store" sets the rules - break them and you are in the wrong. So this guy is WRONG. Also if this guy is willing to rip off ebay - Are you willing to trust this guy to send you a working DVD? What recourse do you have? This is what is wrong with people - greed. I wouldn't give this guy ONE RED CENT. |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
853 Posts |
Would any of you guys buy an item from an ebay Auction listed by Downies...which is one of the biggest coin dealers in Australia and one of high reputation. You have to keep in mind their minimum postage is $8.00...even on one coin. Do you put them in the same category as this guy selling DVD's? |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
Bigfella - the answer is yes. Because my problem with the DVD auction is that the item is essentially underpriced specifically to avoid fees. I don't mind a fair price for an item and a fair price for shipping. I often have to pay $10 or $12 to get a coin shipped from England. I build postage into value - but postage should not be 99.99% of the total charge. The intent to defraud ebay is crystal clear and my avoidance of such a fraud is equally clear. I agree with everyone who says the sale is unethical - I just consider it actual FRAUD. |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
853 Posts |
So the point I am getting here is 1) Buyers factor in postage when looking at the total cost of the item. 2) It is ok to over charge on postage as long as ebay do not miss out on fees. 3) Postage overcharging is also ok particularly if postage is still a minor cost of the total price. ebay will still miss out on fees. There are 2 points I fail to come to grips with here 1) how can a seller "be unethical" or "Fraud" the buyer as he is totally up front with all charges AND you are telling me buyers factor in postage in the overall cost of the item anyway. The "Fraud" here is against ebay and given the sellers long history ebay appear to be fine with things. In all honesty who cares if ebay are "frauded" anyway. With the way ebay skirt round local laws we really should be grateful someone is standing up to them. 2) Sellers that charge $8.00 postage on a $100 item (or a $1,000,000 item for that matter) when it only costs $3.00 to send still have overcharged on postage. Nobody has said anything about this when the same "crime" is committed. I even get an answer saying Downies are doing nothing wrong doing this yet they have still over charged. As long as the buyer is not out of pocket with the total end purchase price I can not see how an injustice is done to the buyer. I suppose I would show more sympathy to ebay if they cared about sellers instead of lining their own pockets!!!! At the end of the day all sellers should care about their customers and that ultimately they have happy and satisfied customers. This seller with his high feedback rating has obviously achieved this. As long I as the consumer get the item at the price I am prepared to pay I could not care less how the payment is "made up". If the DVD guy can make his business more profitable and not rip off his customers and not break the law and ebay allow it...more power to him!!! |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
The point is that this DVD seller does not allow returns for defective products. Also if he did refund the purchase you would get ONE CENT - not the "real" value you based your purchase on. If that DVD is really worth only one cent why would anyone be willing to pay the high postage plus the cent to get it. This guy could send you anything he wants - evena blank DVD and what recourse do you have? If you buy from this guy you support the fraud and ebay eventually RAISES the rates for the honest sellers. Guys like this should be DRIVEN OFF ebay. Downies like all large companies probably has employess who do ebay and shipping. They cost the business real money. So who pays them? It is fair to charge an employee's time as postal fees. A postage and handling fee for a business is totally different than one for a "home business" run by an individual. The one advantage the small guy has in the coin business is a small margin. The time of a collector selling his own collection does not belong in the fee structure (he could put it there if he wants, but he is cutting his own throat), but an employee's time DOES. That is the point you are missing which makes Downies different from this DVD guy. |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
853 Posts |
quote:
Originally posted by swamperbob
The point is that this DVD seller does not allow returns for defective products. Also if he did refund the purchase you would get ONE CENT - not the "real" value you based your purchase on. If that DVD is really worth only one cent why would anyone be willing to pay the high postage plus the cent to get it. This guy could send you anything he wants - evena blank DVD and what recourse do you have?
I do not not know what he will refund. I have not asked him. Have you?He may refund the whole amount for all we know so the basis of this argument is unfounded. The risk here is like the risk you take with any seller you have not dealth with before(on or off ebay). To slander the guy with even asking him directly his business practices is totally absurd. quote:
Originally posted by swamperbob
If you buy from this guy you support the fraud and ebay eventually RAISES the rates for the honest sellers. Guys like this should be DRIVEN OFF ebay.
Fraud is a tough word here. I do not see any fraud...I see honesty as he advertises exactly what his deal is. ebay appear happy with him as they have done nothing to stop him. Every seller therefore has the opportunity to do what he does. ebay will raise fees regardless of what a few sellers do. They will charge what they think they can getr away with...that is the reality of large corporations. To think otherwise is nieve. quote:
Originally posted by swamperbob
Downies like all large companies probably has employess who do ebay and shipping. They cost the business real money. So who pays them? It is fair to charge an employee's time as postal fees. A postage and handling fee for a business is totally different than one for a "home business" run by an individual. The one advantage the small guy has in the coin business is a small margin. The time of a collector selling his own collection does not belong in the fee structure (he could put it there if he wants, but he is cutting his own throat), but an employee's time DOES. That is the point you are missing which makes Downies different from this DVD guy.
So the size of your business reflects how much you can rip people off. The bigger you are the more you can get away with!!! As anyone here asked this guy how big he is. Does it really make a difference if it is a hobby-business, a small business that feeds a family or a corporation. A rip off is a rip off no matter who does it. Now has anyone asked this guy if he is as big as Downies? Not that that makes a difference anyway. The only thing I see here is this guy has coped a lot of flack from non customers who 1) Have not asked him anything and assumed everything. 2) Support big corporations like ebay who are nothing but money making machines but will slander the small guy trying to feed a family or if not just trying to get on with life. 3) Will allow the big guys to rip consumers of blind but will jump all over a small guy that does the same thing. 4) Are happy to tell everyone how a business should be run and call someone a "fraudster" without any just cause because they have had no dealings with the guy or even spoken to him. One final thing...it is ok to disagree with what a business does. If you disagree with a business practice do not deal this the seller. To actually slander a seller with no legal or just cause is a crime in itself. You should not defame a seller because you disagree with the way he does things as going by his feedback there appears to be a lot of people that agree with what he does. I have no problem with advising members what goes on ebay but to call someone unethical or frauduant is nothing but slander. AS A MESSAGE TO THE FORUM MOTHER AND ALL MODERATORS I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THREADS LIKE THIS STOPPED IMMEDIATELY THEY OCCUR. THE REASON I COME HERE IS THAT I DO NOT LIKE SEEING THIS SORT OF SLANDER ON OTHER FORUMS I HAVE LEFT. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
Bigfella - you should read the DVD seller's entire add before charging that I am somehow twisting the facts or not getting it right. I take exception to being told that my response is ABSURD. I don't have to ask him about a return policy. From the text of his own add - "Returns ALL SALES FINAL - SOLD AS IS - NO RETURNS". Exactly how much clearer do you need to be told. He can send you any junk he wants and if you were to complain or sue him in a court of compitent jusrisdiction all you could ever be awarded is ONE CENT - the value he places on the item which is also the final bid price. By bidding one cent and completing the deal - the buyer also establishes the actual value of the item in question. There is no slander here because his stated practice is at best a slick practice done to avoid paying appropriate ebay fees. He is in clear violation of ebay rules so where is there slander on that score. I also find his shipping limitations rather ridiculous and I suspect it may be done to avoid possible complaints to postal authorities. Based on the logic you present in the second argument - all honest sellers who obey the rules are fools. Just because you can get away with thieft does not make it right. I suppose that we should all be stealing whatever we can wherever we can as long as the target is a Big corporation. I don't see myself as naive at all - but I do believe that stealing fees from ebay is wrong no matter how big a company they are. They will charge what they can and that is fine - go elsewhere if you don't like it. Set up your own version of ebay but don't violate their rules to avoid paying what you agreed to when you became a seller. My presumption is that ebay has bigger fish to fry than this one DVD guy. But if you prefer, I will immediately start complaining to ebay about his violation of their rules. We will see if they take action. Regarding slander - the definition is "words falsely spoken that damage the reputation of another". Truth is an absolute defense against a charge of slander. Since by his own admission in the text of his add - he allows NO RETURNS - where am I slandering him on his return policy. Fact is fact. Since his start price and "Buy It Now Price" are both ONE CENT - exactly where am I falsely speaking to the issue of true value and possible remedies in court. Regarding feedback ratings and whether or not I or anyone else choses to do business with him - neither is germaine to the issue at hand. I do not have to buy a counterfeit coin before I can recognize it as a fraud. I don't have to purchase a DVD from anyone violating ebay's rules before I can detect that action as being WRONG uner the rules. Wrong is wrong and no amount of trying to reverse the field and put me or his other detractors on the defensive changes the actually established facts of this case. The seller is in clear violation of ebay rules which he has agreed to accept in order to sell in their venue. He has a NO RETURN policy in a situation the warranty of merchantability implicit in a sale(not in force in all states, but in place in many states INCLUDING Tennessee) would require an ethical business to accept returns of clearly defective goods. To prove slander you need to demonstrate that there is an actual factual misrepresentation. You call Downies shipping charges a "rip-off" yet you yourself present no factual support for that statement what-so-ever. Is that also slander by your definition? Are you not doing precisely what you do not want done simply because you disagree? Is stealing from ebay by avoiding a fair fee any less a thieft because all sellers "could do it". |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
853 Posts |
quote:
Originally posted by swamperbob
There is no slander here because his stated practice is at best a slick practice done to avoid paying appropriate ebay fees. He is in clear violation of ebay rules so where is there slander on that score. I also find his shipping limitations rather ridiculous and I suspect it may be done to avoid possible complaints to postal authorities.
The point I was trying to make here is that is your opinion....not that of the 25000 odd happy customers who have bought from this guy. It is one thing to voice an opinion like "I disagree with what this guy does". It is another to call someone "unethical" or "fraudulent" or a "theif" as mentioned below unless. YOU HAVE CROSSED A LINE HERE AND I WANT TO SEE THIS PRACTICE STOPPED ON THIS FORUM. quote:
Originally posted by swamperbob
You call Downies shipping charges a "rip-off" yet you yourself present no factual support for that statement what-so-ever. Is that also slander by your definition? Are you not doing precisely what you do not want done simply because you disagree? Is stealing from ebay by avoiding a fair fee any less a thieft because all sellers "could do it".
I have never called Downies a rip of. ALl I have pointed out is that they charge $8.00 for postage on even small items which is more than Australia Post charge. I was making a point that Downies charge more than the postal cost but nobody has a problem with that even though by the definition given here postal over charging is fee theft. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4589 Posts |
well I tell ya what I have a neighber who was burning copies of movies an selling them over ebay, and not had a clue to how this was wrong and illegal they were making 1000 a week roughly he said I told him of all the laws that he was breaking and I do truly believe he had no Idea. hard to believe for most people I agree I guess you just have to know this guy but as far as I know he doesn't sell any more |
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Replies: 46 / Views: 4,095 |
First Page
Posted 05/09/2006 10:48 pm
