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Clashed Dies And Die Cracks

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remmy1100's Avatar
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 Posted 08/17/2010  4:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add remmy1100 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Lou,

I am telling you... This is like a picture book (literally) it is the most thorough attribution guide that makes attributing maybe the hardest date/mint easy. My wife attributed a 02-O (I feel like Jason here... my wife the VAMer... how cool) using his guide. I have faith in you even if you dont. :)
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 Posted 08/17/2010  5:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add zeewool to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Oh, I believe you Remmy....I was just joking with you. If Alan did it, it has got to be good.
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remmy1100's Avatar
United States
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 Posted 08/17/2010  7:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add remmy1100 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Gotcha, sometimes it is hard to see sarcasm and jokes behind the typed word.
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aladinslamp's Avatar
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 Posted 08/18/2010  12:28 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add aladinslamp to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
1904-0 is just like many years,un-researched until now when to many questions are asked...now the numbers are changing...Go figure....
Many years have only been briefly considered...less than 10 or 20 known die pairs....few listings with fewer pictures or postings..
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Ceylon62's Avatar
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1285 Posts
 Posted 09/02/2010  06:58 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ceylon62 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
What percentage (guesstimate) of Morgan's in general have "Clashes" and "cracked dies"? Thanks
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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 Posted 09/02/2010  12:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
What percentage (guesstimate) of Morgan's in general have "Clashes" and "cracked dies"? Thanks


Depends on how you're meaning the question. It's very likely that every single year and mint have both cracked and clashed dies. Some are more common than others, of course (I'm looking at you, 1921 ).

As a percentage of overall production, the number is likely low (+/-10%, maybe? Less?). They just get a lot more attention because of their distinctive features.
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Ceylon62's Avatar
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 Posted 09/02/2010  1:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ceylon62 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well David, Let me try it again. On one of your recent posts / replies you said something like 50% of the 1921 Morgan's had the 16 berry reverse. So I guess my question is along those lines.

The combos would go like this regardless of year (more I think about it)
1)die Cracks
2)Clashed
3)Die crack and Clashes.

This could expand based on the progression of the die, but I am just looking at in simpleton terms for the time being.

So would the 10% cover the 3 criteria?

Thanks
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 Posted 10/06/2010  9:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add zeewool to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Some clashes are far more pronounced than others, yet only letter transfers count for anything. That has always puzzled me, as the letter transfers usually are among the least noticeable of the clashes, while wreath clashes are among the most prominent.

I see you guys straining to pick out and identify an N or a G, not to mention that phantom E thingy. It just seems rather silly to me that a person will cast a blind eye to a significant clash while searching in vain sometimes for even a small portion of a very lightly transferred letter for the simple reason that those are the rules.

I guess that the line has to be drawn somewhere, but I hear so many times about how much you love clashes......but why?......Do you ever self analyze what you do and why? I would think that a wreath clash would be just as telling for die state progression as would letter transfer.....or am I wrong, and missing a fundamental concept here?
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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 Posted 10/06/2010  9:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The common thread, the tie that binds, all collectors is rarity.

A clash with letter transfer among Morgans is rare. It takes a huge clash to transfer a letter. A quick study indicates that there might also be die-alignment issues given that some of the strongest letter-transfer clashes aren't of similar strength in the "obvious" markers. Indeed, there are more than a few really strong clashes among Morgans, unaccompanied by corresponding "easy" details elsewhere, which are the impetus for my question to you regarding the die setscrew from another thread. What's the depth of a letter in Liberty's headband? A few hundredths? What would it take, factoring in the possibility of shattering of the die at a point below the actual face, to postulate a wholly non-parallel strike?

The stronger the letter transfer, the rarer. Furthermore, the few which have both strength and (relative) numbers are all the more in demand because they're achievable in an atmosphere where demand so exceeds supply.

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 Posted 10/06/2010  11:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add zeewool to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for taking the time to rationalize this Dave. Evidently I have not looked at enough clashes unless they were pointed out to me, and then most of the letter transfers, I never did see.

As for the rarity aspect of the N and the G (and any other IGWT letters), I might think that the reason that they are usually weak to indistinguishable might be the same reason that this is a prime area for 'filled letters'; the intricacy of these letter drop offs in an open field does not lend itself well to clash contact, yet it does seem prone to nook and cranny status for goo and trash build up. The wreath drop offs however, are wider and would seem to me to be more susceptible to clash contact. The lettering in the headband is a totally different animal, as the letters have no depth, they are in fact, the field, The headband is the device circling that field, and that is why letter transfer is far more pronounced on the E which lies at one of the highest points of the die radius.

"What's the depth of a letter in Liberty's headband? A few hundredths? What would it take, factoring in the possibility of shattering of the die at a point below the actual face, to postulate a wholly non-parallel strike?"

I say a letter in the headband has no depth, but the headband around these letters does have a few hundredths, and as such would require little in the way of actual clashing force. I could be wrong about all of this, and would appreciate it if you might correct me if this is the case.
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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 Posted 10/06/2010  11:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The wreath drop offs however, are wider and would seem to me to be more susceptible to clash contact. The lettering in the headband is a totally different animal, as the letters have no depth, they are in fact, the field, The headband is the device circling that field, and that is why letter transfer is far more pronounced on the E which lies at one of the highest points of the die radius.


Do we postulate, then, a convex result to basining, or a concave one? Either way, though, the headband letters are no better than field-level. Why do no headband letter transfers include any measurable transfer from the edges of the headband itself?

IGWT is more plausible to me in that the transferred letters are in a clear portion of the field, and they hit a clear portion of the field on the "receiving" die. All the same, it's extremely rare that more than a single letter of IGWT is transferred. Why is that? Does it say something about the surface of the face of a die? Or what, then?
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Ozland's Avatar
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 Posted 10/07/2010  12:09 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ozland to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Basining produces a uniform radius of curvature suitable for coining. If taken to extreme, the result is a loss of design, not a noticeably curved field. However, the zinc basining tools had a fixed radius with different tools being used for different denominations and dies.

There are coins that show the effects of incorrect basining: usually a weakness of strike near the rim.

Dollar dies were slightly convex. When combined with the correct planchet upset angle and diameter, this produced flat coins with the minimum amount of striking pressure. But, radius, planchet and pressure had to be carefully balanced.

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Ozland's Avatar
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 Posted 10/07/2010  12:20 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ozland to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Zee, that information comes from your same source.
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 Posted 10/07/2010  07:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add zeewool to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Postulation is overshadowed by principle in my 'opinion'.

Yes Oz, I recognize the flow pattern of the words, however, this is not in reference to clashing.
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aladinslamp's Avatar
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 Posted 10/08/2010  03:44 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add aladinslamp to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
now we come back to the topic, hehehe, to late at night to answer but love to see the whole principles arise.....(my meaning is. it's not a simple answer and there are many points involved)...great to see this surface....been away.
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