The Seven Topics Of VAMming That Merit No Discussion

What is truly scary is 12 miles or so north of me is a big lake. Last time I looked no one lives there. Most of the poeple collect breaks or clashes in the Morgan dollars. I have my share of morgans.... Not my limit yet so I am still "Hunting" and a few of the guys make the number I have look small! And they are not dealers.

Oz,
I just do not see that one one can give a good or true answer to many of them. On ship we called it scuttlebutt. On a few questions we all will get the fill in when LVA passes. I live near Cleveland and we always say if do not like the weather wait a minute. I see a lot of this as planing a picnic but no one has a weather report or there are two opposing weather reports. That and I do not have any real input so I lie in wait.

I do think your right I that several discussions happened well over a year ago when the thought of changing the numbering systems to allow vams that had already been found and there were no room for additional vams with those die pairs involved..The present numbering systems assigns a new number to the new found VAM, later it may be found that this is a later progression in the coins die state...that issue brought forth a few peoples ideas where they had already laid out there idea of how things should be re-organized...that by it self brought quite STRONG negative responses, as no one would agree on how best to fix that particular issue.. the other fact being how would all the TPG's which are on-board the gravy train...reholder already assigned and graded coins.....that drastic action would result in the fall of vams as we know it....
I do think that these are questions that are being asked in the back round as they are points of this hobby that are factual and effect the hobby as a whole....
the question has always been in my eye's..."WHERE" can one talk about this with out being thought as the traitor to the cause, even though every one knows there are flaws within the system.....
I choose to talk about them and explore them in open context as to aquire an understanding of the system, and like any system one must understand the flaws to truely understand where they might fit into this hobby......
IF: one was to aspire that this is just a hobby like any other,
then MANY WOULD SAY THAT IT doesn't MATTER, Because your paying money to fill your time with something you like to do.....Just as beenie babies died out and you had $10,000 wrapped up into your collections it shouldn't matter there worthless today. after all its just a hobby....
BUT: we know this is not a realistic approach to collecting anything..they do represent a value, one would hope that its representative value is fair in market value...
One must also wonder if the perceived idea or values are truly representative of the whole market value my meaning is , across the board everyone, not just one source placing the value or its idealistic values which the masses supposedly accept....by which you can take your vams, just like coins and get the market value in return when you sell them, that depends on what level you are connected with, Grey Sheet VS RedBook.....

That being said I think a great place to start is....
Question number 3....
What suggestions would you make to grow the hobby?
I think we do that here to some degree, yet only on a small venue
as one yearns to teach, so to does one needs a student..
and there are many who post here, and again there are even more I think who read yet chose not to speak....I would like to see those people reach out and join into the discussions as it will enhance the whole of the hobby as well ....while it's not necessary to post a VAM of the week I think the idea of posting a coin that everyone can see and study, will improve peoples understanding of what a VAM is and process involved in identifying them...

Is Vamming real?

That one could go both ways. Is there hype I am sure of it. On the other hand I now find broken and clashed coins far more interesting. And I for one would and have paid more for ones I like then ones I do not. So I think the answer is Yes!

Are Vams worth more?

That one could go both ways as well. I personally am only building a Mint State 1900 O/CC set, as non are known in a registry set to date. I am 2 coins short with the low grade at MS-63. Would I pay a premium for one of them? Yes! not because I what bragging rights, it's because there are no reported Vam-7's known in mint state.

I would say under some cases there are a few that are worth much more then others. Again I think it comes down to finding the right buyer, and being a seller willing to wait it out!


How many VAM collectors are there?


I think there are a lot more casual Vammer out there then one would think. People that like breaks and clashes and double die type coin's not limited to just Morgans and Peace dollars. But as far as a hard number? How many penny collectors or for that matter how many Quarter collectors are there really?


The uneasy dealer / collector symbiosis

At the end of the day, it really is of no concern unless your a dealer. And then each area of the countries demographics are different. What percentage is on the East coast -vs- the West coast? What is your market share in relation to the number of listed dealers in community? For that matter what type of reputation do they have, as the ones with less then good ones..have it for a reason

Each area of the country is different and ever changing. Unless I was a dealer I would never look at it, as I am sure many dealers spend hours a month picking up moving inventory and wholesaling dead items.

I do not have time in my day to worry about there business. I have seen as anyone that has collected for over 3 years see coins get Hot and Cold. The new dollars are a prime case of hype, and is repeated time and time again. Look at the 1976 silver 3 piece set. Even when silver hit the all time high with the Hunts (50.00) an oz. you could not get out of them if you paid the premium back in 1976.

I do think there are a few dealers that really collect to collect Vams. I take that back I KNOW there are dealers that collect Vams. I am also sure it is just a profit point for others.

How to grow the hobby?

? Talk with your kids, show people interesting die mistakes that are side line quarter collectors and such. If they like error coins you will most likely make a friend. Not talk about a 1.5 degree rotation that needs a scale to see. the key word is interesting. Other than that I have no clue.

What happens when Leroy is gone?

1) First there will be an announcement in his local paper.
2) Then probably a wake after that.
3) Then a power vacuum will hit Vamming.
4) And then we will know what Leroy put in his will or trust.

5) No matter what.. I will look at the 2 time he had me over and be thankful for the time he shared with me.


Where is the hobby headed?

We all LEAD here in my humble opinion.

We chose to collect and not to collect. For that matter when we chose to collect then we as individuals then decide the WHAT we collect.


Sorry I did not intend to rant. But as you read thought it you can see where I am coming from. I am not a dealer, so I spend little to no time stressing over there bills. I feel a broken die or a heavy clashed Morgan in a mint state is rarer then one with out. The how rare that is a judgement call. As I do not write books or hold myself out as some expert I look at how damaged the die looks. Big cracks to me mean the die was on it's last leg. A strong clash well that could take some time too ware and be re-polished away, and is not as rare but also not common.

Anyway that's my 2 cents. And the longest post without a photo
Russ

I believe the personality trait of reticence tends to somewhat predominate among numismatists of previous generations - and I count myself among the "previous generation" lest you consider me judgmental - as befits a focused, studious personality. For every established VAMmer who actively describes these issues as contentious, there are two others whose natural tendency is to keep their opinions to themselves. This, to me, cannot be objectionable. Keep in mind, someone who today is considered an "established VAMmer" has devoted a significant amount of time and effort (years) to develop their skills, not to mention a rather substantial amount of scratch. There will in many cases be an accompanying desire to protect their investment. An attitude of, "I paid my dues to get here; what have you done?" I do not judge it; I mention it.

There *are* some few whose efforts are directed inward rather than outward, in the pejorative sense. They're the ones who "clique," if I may transform a noun into a verb.

Yet others have made the personal decision that these topics are either circular and proceed nowhere, or they're unqualified to comment. Remember the studious, fact-based psyche of the numismatist.

And there is another subset for whom your questions are irrelevant, because they're willing to discuss them. You establish yourself as a charter member by asking the questions. And you're not alone.

Numismatics is yet another field of endeavor which the Internet has changed, dramatically and forever. ebay means you can visit a thousand coin stores without leaving your chair, and hundreds of established vendors are now at your fingertips on their own websites. Forums like this one mean you can actively seek fellow enthusiasts in their thousands, all over the world, and exchange information literally at the speed of light.

The new reality is barely started, and it is not possible for it not to grow in the future. Coin collectors who would never have considered collecting by variety are making that choice, due to the easy availability of both coins and information. Those who would never have collected coins at all, seeing the hobby as a shut-in activity, cheerfully join the fray because they can come to places like Coin Community and socialize, brag a little, and derive a greater enjoyment from interacting with their peers than ever before.

I am not just optimistic about the future of VAMming. I am certain. Even in Coin Community's small niche of the hobby as a whole, I can think of at least a dozen members who have become active Morgan variety enthusiasts in the last couple of years. Many more have become aware of the activity because of a seed planted by someone who not only graded but attributed their coin.

There will be new collectors, new generations. The old rules regarding how quickly the activity propagates simply do not apply any more.

Al of this will happen whether or not "they" want it to. It is inexorable, unstoppable. The only thing it needs is what we're supplying here and at other coin-related fora across the Internet - people to talk to about it. As a result, the questions you pose become less contentious every day.

WELL SPOKEN !! especially the last few lines, I don't know how to capture sentences of others posts, but the fact is its changing because we speak out.and the knowledge is spreading,even if its one drop of rain at a time it still raises the ocean of knowledge, and this knowledge is not in its total understanding phase, it is ever changing as it also grows.....as we all learn and discuss our ideas..that is why more who sit back and watch should join in...

What is this SSDC that everyone keeps referring to? It does not seem that very many people understand what a silver dollar actually is......silver dollars not limited to Morgan and Peace varieties....Ask your board of directors anything about Trade dollars, Early dollars, Seated dollars, Gobrecht dollars, ask them how any these coins were made...see how qualified they are to speak intelligently about silver dollars....Who elected these people anyway? What did anyone feel were their qualifications? For those who feel that a placing a pack of wolves at the door to the chicken house was the way to go, then we will just wait and see.....Has anybody ever even considered the possibility of starting up a Society of VAM Collectors? If you think that you need this SSDC thing more than it needs you, then you might want to think about who it is actually benefiting.

You are totally missing my point Russ.....Collectors need their own society or club....free of fees, structured directorship, or anyone profiting from it..... Wikis are free, and it sure would beat whining and moaning threads like this one..... but if a person feels the desire to play the registry game or to have their hobby controlled by folks whose intentions are questionable, then these seven questions should not even be asked....Anyone who pays any attention at all to these top and hit lists is being controlled and plays the dealers game despite their denial of it.

This forum right here could fill the void of a collector's hobby (as long as the commercialism could be kept at bay..... by ignoring it)..... That is all I am saying.