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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
9871 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1581 Posts |
> Any truth to a new 20 dollar coin coming out with 25% silver content.
The $20 being discussed in this thread has 1/4 ounce of silver.
But, that's too low to be a bullion coin because the selling price should never dip more than 10%-20% below face value, until silver passes about $80-$85. And the mintage is way to high to be a numismatic coin (no collector premium).
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Valued Member
423 Posts |
Ugly: I agree. We should make this as painful for the banks as much as possible. The banks post billion dollar profits and aren't following the currency act in regards to this coin. The banks also love to nickel and dime people to death. I don't have any pity for the banks and think the banks "hardship" argument is laughable. The RCM is no better though. They have clearly tried to sell this coin as legal tender and make it equal to a $20 bill. The RCM isn't trying to enforce the currency act so far. The only published record so far from the RCM was the facebook page posted by dialog_gvf. The RCM facebook statement is a joke. If the RCM doesn't make a forceful and clear statement about this coin to the banks then they have oversold the coins worth/liquidity to the general public and have undermined their own authority. If the RCM hopes the problem just goes away without a clear statement and action then the RCM peddles play tokens. The RCM brought this upon themselves and needs to clean up its own mess. If the RCM does not clean up their mess and hopes the problem goes away or that people won't do anything about it then the RCM sells granny bait and everyone should be warned. |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1733 Posts |
but but but but.... the RCM does sell Granny bait. Anyone want a badly pixelated bird on an oversized quarter? |
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Valued Member
423 Posts |
^^^ lol... yes, but is it a quarter as most people know a quarter to be? or is it really just an RCM token? The RCM either backs it's legal tender status or it needs to stops putting a legal tender value on the bait. It is an unfair and deceiving practice and helps erode confidence in our already inflated dollar. As an aside: I do think the coin you speak of was done by a talented artist. The RCM process leaves much to be desired though. New tag line for the RCM: We take great artists and their work and using our processes dilute out the beauty of that artwork. We also make government promises of legal tender meaningless. I guess more to the point it should read: Proudly diluting anything of any worth for our bottom line. |
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Valued Member
Canada
248 Posts |
Granny bait!A little sexes, but that's real funny,  ---I say, well isn't this interesting! I've been observing and reading the last 9 pages and all the debate on the legality of the legal tender aspect. Oh! My eyes are watering! ---It seems like I wasn't just ranting on, about the RCM and that the banks not wanting them...! Back on page 12&13. It took allot of inpute for some to come to the same realization. Reality! ---The RCM's reputation has been smashed years ago, way back to 1973 with the 1976 Olympic coins; the banks really didn't want them then either. ---Now, they sell for the silver content only, like scrap silver, and that's too bad because they were nice coins too. This $20 coin is worth about $7-8 of silver today!  But understandably, the Banks don't want to buy into a loosing proposition or novelty, then having to deal with it latter! They like a standard slote, for handling and can choose. ---They ( RCM) don't care, they got your money and are willing to give your $20 back, only if you go through the trouble to send it back, not including your cost of shipping it back! They know that the numbers are in there favour! ---So, I stand on what I said back then and still say again it's a really nice coin but that's all it is, (pretty) and that's ok for those that want to collect them, just not me! ---The legal tender claim was a play, as I said before and they know that, as it all comes down to who choose's to accept them and all have the right! It will never be challenged and they know that too! At least not succsessfully, just money back. ---So, some may rant about that, but that's the reality! And they will do it again, because it works! You can't blame the Banks, they have the right to choose and won't be forced, so forget about it and if you like favours from your Bank I wouldn't push it, as better advise to take, it would only be painful for you, but do what you feel is right! ---We must face it, the Banks control the money and the RCM just make's it, now in more ways, with your help! ---So, blame the RCM! But I guess the long and the short of it, you can't blame them either, because they are a business too, that needs to make money! I just don't endorse there practices.  ---So, what the heck!*? Lets just enjoy the coins for there beauty or collect-ability and forget about the politics of it, because it's bigger than we are all combined, it's just a torment. IMO
Edited by commoncents13
02/27/2011 06:59 am
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1733 Posts |
Actually, Schedule I and II banks agree to all terms set out in the Canadian Currency Act as mentioned in the Canadian Banking Act, which means blindly agreeing to future memos of understanding between the Minister of Finance and the RCM. This is not an option, anymore than refusing to accept the new polymer notes would be an option for the banks. While a retailer can outright reject a 100 dollar note, the banks cannot, instead it's up to them to have on site means of detecting counterfeits if they choose to do so. It's part of banking. aside: Last time I checked the number 7 Class I bank in Canada was the Canadian Tire Bank. I don't know where they sit now. Just to clarify, the RCM acts under the legal right that anything they issue with a face value is legal tender. They have some but not unlimited flexibility on the amount they can produce. They get a letter from the Minister that says we need X amount of circulating currency minted based on feedback from the RCM themselves, the Bank of Canada, input from the retail banking establishment, historical use rates and so on. This is a pretty standard logistics forecast modeling job for those into logistics and distribution. At this point in the process the mint might say "we need 10 million in wiggle room to produce bullion coins, giftware and whatever else we can come up with". It's built into the model and the BOC then knows how much potential currency there is floating around as a liability. The disconnect here is when a Schedule I or II bank turns down legal tender. They have no right to do so legally, but there is also no method in place to enforce the law without having someone come along and wage legal war on them. Only the Minister of Finance could approve this action. The RCM itself is NOT (did I say NOT) in a position to force the banks to do anything at all. The best the RCM can do is ask politely for cooperation. They could potentially escalate an issue like this to the Minister via the board, but they can't handle it on their own. If you want action on this, only one public institution has the capability of enforcing the law on this. That institution is the office of the Minister of Finance in Ottawa. The Honourable James Flaherty Minister of Finance 140 O'Connor Street Ottawa, Ontario K1A 0G5 No stamp needed. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2408 Posts |
Ugly, Thanks for your post. Valuable info. Common cents, We see people with different opinions of what Legal Tender really means for collector coins. A few things I learned throughout this discussion - merchants can accept or refuse * ANY * form of cash - banks can accept or refuse NCLT - debit cards and checks are * NOT * legal tender So then, the bigger question: what is good cash? The Mint may be playing a silent game here regarding the Legal Tender aspect of this coin. Partly because of their advertised "exchange" $20 for $20 which invites such a debate. For me, this is hardly a rant but a concern. I think some posters may be confused by the fact that the coin is made in pure silver. Thus it should have 1 once, or at least $20 worth in silver, that it isn't a bullion, etc. All this is not relevant to the core debate. If the mint had issued a nickel $20 coin for $20 the debate about NCLT would have been clear. The perception would have been that the coin must be meant for circulation. Clearly, this coin was NOT meant to circulate. Let's remember that Canadians rejected the $5 coin in 2005, so it is unlikely that they would accept a $20 coin today, made in silver or not. So my point is, as far as the Mint is concerned this coin is just like any other NCLTs. If the Mint had released 200,000,000 of them through the banking system just like regular coins then that would have been a different story. So why put the blame on the Mint? Why put the blame on anybody for that matter? I am not sure there needs to be a blame. I think what is happening is very good actually. I received the Charlton Standard Catalogue for Collector and Maple leaf issues. Thousands of NCLT coins that have been issued since 1908. And among all those, only a handful have seen their numismatic or intrinsic value fall below face value, and for a very short period of time. So this is an unusual situation. And what is so unique about this $20 coin today is: right out of the gate we have a numismatic coin worth $20 (a bit more for now on the secondary market but this may be temporary) and worth less than $20 in silver. Two hundred thousand coins are a LOT of coins for NCLT standards. As demand wanes and if silver stagnates then people will start spending them. It'll be interesting to watch.  Edited by canadian_coins
02/27/2011 2:39 pm
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Valued Member
423 Posts |
C_C: You said "- banks can accept or refuse NCLT". I believe Ugly has pointed out that banks by law do not have this option. They must accept legal tender (with the limitations on number of coins set out in the currency act as the only limiting condition). The banks are not following the law, which is the problem. The RCM because of this coin and one would think for their reputation of their business model would: - formally tell the banks to comply with the law - make a public statement on their website to clarify the law for the general public - take further actions if required If the RCM sits on their hands and does nothing, then I hope one day the banks use this example and win in court that the legal authority of RCM coins don't mean anything and that the RCM wouldn't even protect it's right under law. The RCM sold this coin and shoved the "legal tender" aspect of this coin in peoples faces. If the RCM can't make the "legal tender" aspect of this coin work in real life (banks accepting them) then I think it is fair to question all of their coins and worth and I think the judges will agree. You can't pick and chose what coin is legal tender and what coin isn't legal tender if they are all legal tender - this logic undermines the whole system. The RCM is setting a dangerous precedence for itself by doing nothing or hoping no one will notice. Either the RCM acts or it is a joke and all of it's coins are. I will not pay lawyer costs to defend the RCM, that is the RCM problem. If the RCM does nothing then you know what all of their coins are worth - the metal used to make them. Why put blame? Because if the RCM decides to do nothing then they have made their coins worth the metal value only. The RCM though has sold these coins as "legal tender" though. Thus, $20 real money for $7 worth of silver. The general public believes they are worth $20 real dollars as sold by the RCM. The RCM will become a snake oil salesman by doing nothing. They created the problem - they get to fix it (with real dollars out of their pockets if need be). Edited by realpenny
02/27/2011 5:30 pm
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Valued Member
423 Posts |
Another note: When the BofC made $1 and $2 bills there was no limit on the number of those bills I could use to make a payment with. Sure, if I used a thousand $1 bills to pay a debt of $1000 the person may not like it, but the transaction would happen. With the RCM junk $1 coins I am limited. Seems pretty clear everything the RCM touches turns to junk or is weakened fairly rapidly. It might be best for the Canadian monetary system if the RCM lost most/all of it's privileges. Give back the $1 and $2 coins to the BofC as they are more liquid in bill form. If the RCM gets rid of the cent and most likely the nickel to follow - the RCM would be reduced with only two real coins. I think the RCM if it doesn't act is reducing itself to a giftware company and it may be best if that is how it serves the public. Edited by realpenny
02/27/2011 6:19 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2408 Posts |
Realpenny, I referred to the comment made by a Mint rep: Quote:
...please note that our numismatic coins cannot be redeemed at a financial institution for their face value.
Sincerely,
Eric Riley
Customer Service Representative/Représentant du service à la clientèle
Royal Canadian Mint/Monnaie royale canadienne
Honestly, to me, this was a revelation. |
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Valued Member
423 Posts |
Wow Eric Riley should get a huge pat on the back from the major Canadian banks if that is the RCM official position as an entity. The major banks can now claim: the RCM makes no legal tender what so ever. Numismatic coins include all coins doesn't it? Guess it is high time the major banks start their own currency system for Canada then (fees and all). More proof the RCM doesn't know what it is doing. I also like how the RCM gets to "recover" all the .999 nickels and destroy/sell them and then gets paid to replace them. Imagine if all the companies that built bridges could make them out of cheaper metal and got to rip down all the old bridges, sell the metal and got paid to make new ones. Getting paid twice is profitable. The more I look at the RCM the more I see what a bad deal they really are. Edited by realpenny
02/27/2011 7:20 pm
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Valued Member
Canada
248 Posts |
-canadian_coins- Nice going, the truth is out, good job  ---This was not a revelation to me as I've been saying this for awhile just that some did not want to here it! ---As we would say in the Artillery, a direct hit, target destroyed! Sorry that the news isn't what some might want but reality. The ( RCM) has been playing everybody and now admit it, so to speak! and surely would say that it was always the case, if pushed, that they did nothing wrong! They just want your money! ---As I said a play with words. Question when did you get this or find it?
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
598 Posts |
>>> edited/deleted... cuz I can't read good!  Anyway... as I posted way back there somewhere, I have no interest in the RCM's NCLT  . But, the controversy this coin has generated has made it a necessity for my collection. As an aside my mom does collect coins, and the granny bait nomenclature is rather appropriate. However, she typically has little interest in the NCLT as well... unless there is some direct relevance with a particular piece for her... but, she also wants one of these new $20, uhm, coins, because of the mint's marketing strategy I 'spose?  Edited by IBGolden
02/27/2011 7:51 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2408 Posts |
Common cents, Chequer reported on this thread in page 7.
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Replies: 425 / Views: 38,453 |
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Posted 02/26/2011 12:59 pm
