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 Replies: 107 / Views: 10,594 |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12437 Posts |
Quote:
Wether it be solely to heat, or just to chemicals or to a combination of both, it is a NATURAL occurence. Period. Any argument to the contrary is futile. There is nothing at all natural about applying a catalyst to dramatically increase the kinetics of what would otherwise be a slow natural reaction. As for the subject at hand, I would have leaned toward natural toning in an oxidative environment. .999 silver does not tone like coinage silver, it is much more reactive and can produce vibrant colors. I also own several SAEs with those colors but I do not own one that has them all  Quote:
all toned coins will eventually go black. That is true if the coin is left in the oxidative environment indefinitely. Once the coin is removed that environment, the toning process will cease. Quote:
original rolls with reeding black as coal on otherwise blast white coins The reeding would have been in contact with sulfur-laden paper for decades which resulted in gross formation of silver sulfide. The faces of the coins never touched the paper wrapper so they would have stayed relatively pristine and untoned. |
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New Member
United States
14 Posts |
Thank you, BioKemist - I am learning a lot about the chemistry and the philosophy of AT/NT coins. Now I am curious, you mentioned that black areas on the surface of Ag are composed of silver sulfide. Are the surface areas with other colors composed of different compounds, or are they also composed of silver sulfide, only in different concentrations? Do green areas contain traces of copper, or red areas have Fe in them? My fascination for NT coins leads me to wonder how so many different colors can be on the same surface - i.e., is the variegation of colurs due to an optical phenomenon (e.g., how deep the Ag-sulfide layer is on a given part of the coin surface), or a chemical phenomenon (e.g., what is the composition of the chemical on different part of the surface)? And, while I have so many experienced numismatists here, I have another sort of question. Early on in my ebay collecting days (actually not all that long ago), I purchased a couple of toned Morgans that I now assess as AT (or even worse, "IT" = Intentionally Toned, i.e. cooked). Now I'm wondering what I should do with them. I don't want them sitting right alongside the other coins in my collection, and I don't want to discard them, so they're just sitting by themselves in a drawer. Should I give them away to some young children as trinkets? Should I try to sell them for "melt value"? Any suggestions for someone stuck with a couple of AT/IT coins that I find somewhat objectionable? |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4132 Posts |
It's all silver sulfide, but the rainbow colors are caused by thin-film interference (the same thing that causes iridescent colors in soap bubbles or an oil sheen on water.) |
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New Member
United States
14 Posts |
That hyperlink led me to a really good Wikipedia article on thin-film interference; I do appreciate it. (Also gives me pause to think about why I'm willing to pay such a premium for thin-film interference on silver dollars when I can get it for free from soap bubbles and oil slicks) .....
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1547 Posts |
Quote:Artificial and natural are COMPLETELY WRONG TERMS. I HATE the use of them. They are used in a biased manner dependant on the persons line of thinking. Normally I dont disagree with Thad, but here I do vehemently. Especially for him and those that hold his same opinion to insult me (YES insult me) by saying I am not a serious collector. Thad, dont get indignant when someone comes back at you after insulting them. By saying a serious collector wouldnt like this coin or one like it, you have insulted them. Using the phrase "only a serious collector" in ANY argument generally amounts to an insult. That aside, to my point... As has been pointed out, toning is the NATURAL reaction of the metal of any given coin to the occurences in the atmosphere that the coin is in. Wether it be solely to heat, or just to chemicals or to a combination of both, it is a NATURAL occurence. Period. Any argument to the contrary is futile. These are NATURAL chemical responses. So the coin in question is a NATURAL toning. And as the OP has now pointed out, this coin was not "cooked". So where does that put all of you screaming its "artificial"? It puts you in the wrong on your terminology and line of thinking. No purposeful actions caused this coin to color. Note that last sentence....no PURPOSEFUL actions.... THAT is the terminology that truly describes some toned coins. Accidental and purposeful. This coin was toned completely by accident. Just the chemicals in the air reacting to the silver in the coin. (On a side note...DUDE, MOVE YOUR SHOP! If there is enough sulfur just floating around in the air from a glass shop, it CANT be good to breath!) Wait, you dont have that shop anymore do you? Anyway, had fredd purposefully put it in an old envelope in the furnace room to get the coin to tone, that would be purposeful, NOT artificial. As for damage...nope, dont buy into that. At least not to the extent to say its as bad as gouging with a knife. Thad, technically speaking, the things you do with Verdis Care (or whatever its called) and the like would amount to damage as well. At least so far as PCGS is concerned. One of your rehabed coins goes through their sniffer, its getting a genuine slab and nothing more. That comes from your very own line of thinking, just taken to the next step. I have paid premiums for some beautifully toned coins. Some in the rainbow category, one gorgeous gold toned V nickel, etc. And they are NOT damaged as if a knife was taken to them. And I AM a serious collector. So neither artifial or natural, but accidental or purposeful. And as was shown here, just looking at the coin does NOT tell you which it is. Without elaboration, I'm with you. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1547 Posts |
Quote:
There is nothing at all natural about applying a catalyst to dramatically increase the kinetics of what would otherwise be a slow natural reaction. Well, you talked me into it, I'll elaborate this much. I'm not a crime scene investigator, biokemist6, I'm a coin collector. All tarnish, regardless of its mode of onset, is natural. Period. |
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Valued Member
United States
374 Posts |
i would dip the toning off. JK nice coin regardless if its AT or NT.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3755 Posts |
biokemist, just because the catalyst is purposefully applied, does NOT mean the process is not a natural occurence. If that natural reaction did not happen, then there would be no reason to apply the catalyst now would there?
Uechi, if you feel that way, you can give them to me. Not wanting them next to other coins? Hoookay. I definately think thats a bit much. As I said I will gladly give them a good home and not be segregated about it either.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12437 Posts |
Ok then, please explain what is natural about smearing a coin with a vaseline-sulfur paste? Or placing a coin inside of a potato and setting the oven at 450F for 45 minutes? Those are just two of the more blatant AT methods.
You cannot completely ignore reaction rate kinetics in the toning equation. Suppression or catalysis for the purpose of manipulating reaction kinetics can result in markedly different products- that is what separates AT from NT. IMO, intent has nothing to do with the matter. I can intentionally place some coins in an old Wayte Raymond album or kraft envelope and have some beautifully toned coins in a few years. Both would be perfectly acceptable storage methods to virtually all collectors and both methods will not rapidly tone a coin, just slow plodding oxidation producing a very specific product.
I have never met a single collector who thought that toning via potato baking was even remotely natural but that is exactly what you are arguing, that ALL toning is natural.
Here is a chemistry analogy- the Periodic Table currently lists 118 elements. Most people would say that if an element is listed on the Table, then it is naturally occurring. That would be an incorrect assumption as all elements above Plutonium 94 do not exist in nature, they have to be synthesized in particle accelerators via the collision of other elements Incidentally, some of those isotopic elements have half-lives measured in milliseconds. Those elements truly exist just like induced toning but they have undergone unnatural processes to arrive at that point, just like baking coins in a potato is a wholly unnatural act.
Edited by biokemist6
07/21/2011 01:24 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3402 Posts |
You indicated that the other side was totally white so I'm leaning towards AT. The environment should have done at least something to both sides. Shouldn't it?
KK
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4132 Posts |
It's pretty reductionist to basically say that any and all toning is "natural" because it doesn't violate the laws of physics. By that argument, you could say that hobo nickels arrived at their current state "naturally". There's nothing supernatural about them at all! Nobody's suggesting artificial toning is caused by poltergeists (at least, not yet.)
Toned coins are a bit like distressed furniture. You could have a chair or something, that is distressed because it's old and used and has been exposed to the elements. You could also have a new chair (or a well-preserved antique) that is distressed because somebody beat it up to give it an attractive weathered look. Yes, they were subjected to the same forces to arrive at that state, but the new piece had those forces applied rapidly by power tools. There's clearly is a difference.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1547 Posts |
Quote:
Ok then, please explain what is natural about smearing a coin with a vaseline-sulfur paste? Or placing a coin inside of a potato and setting the oven at 450F for 45 minutes? Those are just two of the more blatant AT methods.
You cannot completely ignore reaction rate kinetics in the toning equation. Suppression or catalysis for the purpose of manipulating reaction kinetics can result in markedly different products- that is what separates AT from NT. IMO, intent has nothing to do with the matter. I can intentionally place some coins in an old Wayte Raymond album or kraft envelope and have some beautifully toned coins in a few years. Both would be perfectly acceptable storage methods to virtually all collectors and both methods will not rapidly tone a coin, just slow plodding oxidation producing a very specific product.
I have never met a single collector who thought that toning via potato baking was even remotely natural but that is exactly what you are arguing, that ALL toning is natural.
Here is a chemistry analogy- the Periodic Table currently lists 118 elements. Most people would say that if an element is listed on the Table, then it is naturally occurring. That would be an incorrect assumption as all elements above Plutonium 94 do not exist in nature, they have to be synthesized in particle accelerators via the collision of other elements Incidentally, some of those isotopic elements have half-lives measured in milliseconds. Those elements truly exist just like induced toning but they have undergone unnatural processes to arrive at that point, just like baking coins in a potato is a wholly unnatural act. I already explained it to you very simply and yet it's evident by this reply that you didn't understand one word I said. Naughty boy. Were you in my kindergarden class you'd be standing in the corner right now until you learned how to pay attention. OK, sorry about that. I mean it. But, the fact remains, you've got me scratching my head with that reply. I just told you, very plainly, you're focusing on (let me italicize it for you this time) the mode of onset of the toning. In so doing, you're fancying yourself, not as a coin collector, but as some kind of crime scene investigator. What do I have to do, draw you a diagram? The mode of onset is irrelevant to whether or not the color on a coin is tarnish. Period. If it is tarnish, it's 100% natural, regardless of the mode of onset. Again, I'm sorry. I mean it. I happen to feel like you're worth the bother, though. You'll forgive me for that. If I didn't, I wouldn't be wasting my time, here, now, would I? If you want to continue to amuse yourself with your forensic skills, that's your business. By all means, collect your tarnished coins based on your analysis of how that tarnish happened to have been imparted to those coins. I'll tell you, though, that's a sucker game. Tarnish is tarnish. Look to the technical condition of the coin underlying the tarnish. That's all that matters. As regards the tarnish, itself, the only thing you have to figure out, there, is whether you like it or not. Class dismissed. Sheesh! |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12437 Posts |
Quote:
I already explained it to you very simply and yet it's evident by this reply that you didn't understand one word I said. Naughty boy. Were you in my kindergarden class you'd be standing in the corner right now until you learned how to pay attention.
OK, sorry about that. I mean it. But, the fact remains, you've got me scratching my head with that reply. I just told you, very plainly, you're focusing on (let me italicize it for you this time) the mode of onset of the toning. In so doing, you're fancying yourself, not as a coin collector, but as some kind of crime scene investigator. What do I have to do, draw you a diagram? The mode of onset is irrelevant to whether or not the color on a coin is tarnish. Period. If it is tarnish, it's 100% natural, regardless of the mode of onset.
Again, I'm sorry. I mean it. I happen to feel like you're worth the bother, though. You'll forgive me for that. If I didn't, I wouldn't be wasting my time, here, now, would I? If you want to continue to amuse yourself with your forensic skills, that's your business. By all means, collect your tarnished coins based on your analysis of how that tarnish happened to have been imparted to those coins. I'll tell you, though, that's a sucker game. Tarnish is tarnish. Look to the technical condition of the coin underlying the tarnish. That's all that matters. As regards the tarnish, itself, the only thing you have to figure out, there, is whether you like it or not. Class dismissed. Sheesh!
Knock off that smarmy attitude right now- who are you to be talking down to me? I understood what you stated but that still doesn't make it correct. I am a coin collector but I am also a trained chemist, the two cannot be separated. It is obvious to me that you are in over your head in this discussion and have no clue in regards to the chemistry of toning. You show that you have no interest in understanding the subject, you just want to stick to your dogma that ALL toning is natural. Once again, artificially induced catalyzed oxidation will result in a completely different toning product than will a slow natural process- mode of onset is quite critical and cannot be ignored. Edited by biokemist6
07/21/2011 10:49 am
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New Member
United States
14 Posts |
To Eddiespin, I would ask you to consider two beautiful desert landscapes at sunset.
One, a lovely outdoor view of nature's splendor, accessible only after hiking by foot miles from any road or trail. The other, a climate-controlled indoor set fabricated of paper mache, acrylic paint, and artifical lighting assembled by the studio artists of Walt Disney World. The former, natural. The latter, artificial. Is there for you no relevant difference between the two, in terms of value, aesthetics, or authenticity? The former, a resplendent accident of nature. The latter, a fabricated product designed to generate entertainment (and profits) for park-goers.
While I wouldn't argue that the artificial landscape is immoral or illegal, I would place a different sort of value, and a greater value, on that found in nature.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
716 Posts |
After reading all these posts, I really don't have an opinion on the topic, but I do on the tone. Demeaning those who disagree with you accomplishes nothing and takes away from intelligent discussion of the topic. Enough said.
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Replies: 107 / Views: 10,594 |
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Posted 07/20/2011 08:02 am
