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Graded, Slabbed, Details, Artificial Toning

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Pillar of the Community
United States
1205 Posts
 Posted 11/06/2016  01:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ilikeikes to your friends list
ebay needs to clamp down HARD on the flourishing Artificially toned coin business on ebay. It is downright out of control, with deception and false information rampant.
Most coins are raw, and, I am too surprised to see this anacs label(they just keep digging their own grave, don't they?), as NGC, PCGS, ICG, would never give a label on an AT coin..never.(PCGS did slab some 1971-S 40% Ike Proof dollars back in the late 1980's, which were infused with a sulfur base oxidant, creating a oh-so-easy-to-spot-look, but, most buyers do not know the difference nowadays, and, spend hundreds of dollars for coins worth melt.
A large ANA campaign, coupled with advice from the TPG's, could help ebay set up new protocol for toned listings, but, since so much money is involved, I seriously doubt any changes for now.
Pillar of the Community
United States
790 Posts
 Posted 11/06/2016  05:09 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add twslisa to your friends list
I understand the philosophy, sort of--if they give "details" grades for things like cleaned coins, why not grade AT'd coins with the same label? At least in these cases, the buyer is on notice that they are being asked to pay $92 for a pretty piece of silver worth melt. If they want to pay that, go for it.

In ungraded coins, it's entirely up to the buyers, most of whom probably aren't able to spot AT (I just read a 32 page article on it and STILL probably couldn't tell in a lot of cases) to figure it out.

I don't know if it's possible to get ebay to crack down, either. As I recall, they let a guy sell a grilled cheese sandwich that toasted in a way that the charred areas looked like Jesus, for some ridiculous amount. At best, IF THEY can tell that a coin is AT'd, maybe they would require the seller to note that in the description.
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 Posted 11/06/2016  09:28 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BStrauss3 to your friends list
It's a point on the continuum between body bag and invisible straight grade for AT coins.

ANACS has done net grading since the days when they were owned by Amos Press. It's at least open and transparent...

In fact, I bought an ANACS SWH at coin club on Thursday night as the archtype of this kind of grading, it's labeled "UNC Details NET AU55 | RECOLORED"
-----Burton
50+ year / Life / Emeritus ANA member (joined 12/1/1973)
Life member: Numismatics International, CONECA
Member: TNA, FtWCC, NETCC, EveryCountry (online) coin club
Owned by three cats and a wife of 40+ years (joined 1983)

Author: 3rd Edition of the Sample Slabs book, https://www.sampleslabs.info/
Pillar of the Community
United States
7390 Posts
 Posted 11/06/2016  10:18 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Cascade to your friends list
That's fully market acceptable. It looks like a pci toner. At first pci will impart light pastel tones but advanced states look very much like this. It is well documented
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 Posted 11/06/2016  10:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BStrauss3 to your friends list
PCI toning is accidental- an unexpected function of the materials used in their slab.

There's no accident here.
-----Burton
50+ year / Life / Emeritus ANA member (joined 12/1/1973)
Life member: Numismatics International, CONECA
Member: TNA, FtWCC, NETCC, EveryCountry (online) coin club
Owned by three cats and a wife of 40+ years (joined 1983)

Author: 3rd Edition of the Sample Slabs book, https://www.sampleslabs.info/
Pillar of the Community
United States
7390 Posts
 Posted 11/06/2016  1:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Cascade to your friends list
This is not "AT" Burton. The color progression is correct, there are elevated chromatics and a concentric target pattern
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 Posted 11/06/2016  1:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BStrauss3 to your friends list
ANACS called it AT
-----Burton
50+ year / Life / Emeritus ANA member (joined 12/1/1973)
Life member: Numismatics International, CONECA
Member: TNA, FtWCC, NETCC, EveryCountry (online) coin club
Owned by three cats and a wife of 40+ years (joined 1983)

Author: 3rd Edition of the Sample Slabs book, https://www.sampleslabs.info/
Pillar of the Community
United States
1205 Posts
 Posted 11/06/2016  1:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ilikeikes to your friends list
Too unnatural looking, and, too young(2012) to tone this way..99% of ASE's do not tone at all, and, when they do, if from an album, it is outer concentric. Most AT's just don't "look" right, and, to me, this is a classic fit.
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United States
7390 Posts
 Posted 11/06/2016  2:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Cascade to your friends list
I know B. But I strongly disagree. Anacs and to a much larger extent NGC aren't too kind to toned eagles for some reason. I wasn't implying above that it was a pci toner just that the look is very similar. And the date hardly matters Ikes, 999 silver is highly reactive and can tone naturally like this in months or less under the right conditions. Were the right conditions induced, maybe, but crack and send this one to PCGS and I bet it would straight grade. They're the only one that seems know what they're doing with toned eagles
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 Posted 11/06/2016  3:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BStrauss3 to your friends list
That's the basic problem...

The toning process, 'naturally' involves long term low concentration to specific contaminants inducing a pleasing visual appearance.

Various processes can apparently accelerate this achieving the same or a noticeably different result in less time. The noticeably different result is clearly AT, but why is the accelerated result NT when it's achieve by deliberate acceleration?
-----Burton
50+ year / Life / Emeritus ANA member (joined 12/1/1973)
Life member: Numismatics International, CONECA
Member: TNA, FtWCC, NETCC, EveryCountry (online) coin club
Owned by three cats and a wife of 40+ years (joined 1983)

Author: 3rd Edition of the Sample Slabs book, https://www.sampleslabs.info/
Pillar of the Community
United States
7390 Posts
 Posted 11/06/2016  4:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Cascade to your friends list
That's why I don't typically subscribe to the AT / NT terminology rather either Market Acceptable or Not Market Acceptable
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 Posted 11/06/2016  4:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BStrauss3 to your friends list
People forget that during the time we own coins we're really only their stewards for the future.

I'll grant you that was done to the bullion coin and it's a little different than what's done to a collector coin. But it's a slippery slope...

Fashion is the evil.

There was a time when the fashion with blast white. Coins were dipped with abandon and the surface is irrevocably altered. Over time they've retoned and now show their true colors as horribly damaged.

Because of the fashion of toned Morgan's people are doing the same thing again.

There probably are hundreds of thousands or even millions of Morgan's out there. But each coin lost is lost forever. And the day will come when there are no more than a tiny handful of original surface coins.

I'm as Numismatist first and a collector second. So I can't endorse any actions that alter the surface of the coin.

It should be passed out of our hands in the same condition it was passed in.

Yes I endorse conservation - true conservation - to preserve the coin we've been entrusted with.
-----Burton
50+ year / Life / Emeritus ANA member (joined 12/1/1973)
Life member: Numismatics International, CONECA
Member: TNA, FtWCC, NETCC, EveryCountry (online) coin club
Owned by three cats and a wife of 40+ years (joined 1983)

Author: 3rd Edition of the Sample Slabs book, https://www.sampleslabs.info/
Valued Member
United States
456 Posts
 Posted 11/09/2016  11:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add AES to your friends list
NGC and ANACS are tough on artificially toned coins and bullion for a reason. The color progression may be correct, but it has obviously been exposed to sulfur and or heat in some controlled manner.

I enjoy collecting toned Morgans and send them to NGC for grading and encapsulation when I find them. The vibrant colors are usually much more subdued and intermittent when it occurs naturally over many years, in my opinion.



Graded,-Slabbed,-Details,-Artificial-Toning
Bedrock of the Community
United States
12437 Posts
 Posted 11/10/2016  12:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biokemist6 to your friends list

Quote:
NGC, PCGS, ICG, would never give a label on an AT coin..never.

That is absolutely incorrect. PCGS problem code 91 is "Questionable Toning" and NGC adds the "Artificial Toning" notation to the grading label. ICG will slab pretty much anything in any condition.
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Norway
1358 Posts
 Posted 11/20/2016  1:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add UltraRant to your friends list

Quote:
As I recall, they let a guy sell a grilled cheese sandwich that toasted in a way that the charred areas looked like Jesus, for some ridiculous amount


Well, isn't that what America is all about? If there's a market for it, go and do business! So basically ebay is just being American, which is not unexpected for an American company.

Anyway, for me there's nothing wrong with selling artificial toned coins, as long as it's clearly stated that it's artificially toned, like in this case. Same goes for slabbing: nothing wrong with slabbing an artificially toned coin, as long as it's clearly labeled as such. This may sound a bit liberal for most Americans, but if people want to willingly destroy their coin and have it slabbed as such, that should be their own business. Nothing wrong with offering it as such on the internet, as long as I'm not obliged to buy or like it. As long as we're open and honest about what's on offer: fine with me. If people then ask ridiculous prices: sure, that's ebay. We have a bunch of topics about that kind of coins on the forum here. If people actually want to pay such amounts of money for such a coin: well, who am I to claim a stake in their wallet and decision? Why should I take responsibility over someones else's stupidity? It's already hard work to do so for my own!
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