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Some Questions On This 1959 P Memorial Cent

 
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Author Previous TopicReplies: 12 / Views: 439Next Topic  
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 Posted 10/09/2022  12:10 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add CCB420 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Good morning CCF peeps! Been a min since I posted anything, my world has been full of BS here lately, although I have been checking in from time to time, just looking at various posts! Anyhoo, I found thus '59 P on the carport floor of a customers house, like every coin I come across, of course I picked him up and gave him a bath! I'm curious what's causing the different size elements on the obverse? G & D look larger than the O in GOD, the 2 T's are smaller than the middle 3 elements in TRUST, the two 9's seem to be different sizes? I mean I see that some have been subjected to some damage, but don't think that's the cause of all of the size variations, but again, I'm below novice level apparently!

Also, on the reverse, column #1, or any of em really, show no fluting, frome circulation I'm sure, but why the fluting to the right of the column?







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 Posted 10/09/2022  12:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Perhaps a bit of circulation damage here and there, tad of MD (?) but overall this looks pretty normal to me.
Edited by Coinfrog
10/09/2022 12:16 pm
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 Posted 10/09/2022  12:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JimmyD to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I see damage and some MD, nothing special.
The only time letters and numbers can be different sizes when the coin is struck
is if it is like that on the striking die in which case all the coins would be the same
otherwise it can be attributed to PMD.
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 Posted 10/09/2022  12:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Coin flattening is a post strike coin event. These devices were normal when struck, later flattened and now the devices are the size of the width of the normal devices size. It the coin is squeezed, then the devices can be enlarged even a bit more. But these are not doubled dies. It is coin damage altering the coin. On a doubled die, the devices are showing a spread on the devices during the die creation. All the coins struck with that die will show enlarged devices because of the doubling on the die. A normal coin will strike normal sized devices. The circulation flattening can and does enlarge them. So how can you tell the difference. Like on your coin, the flattening is unequal on some devices. What is missing that should be seen on a doubled die. The width/spread of the raised devices. The base of these devices will be enlarged even more. So when these are flattened, the base is even wider yet.

Here is a classic year for showing the spread on the '944' on the devices. Note the normal width of the devices? Then view how a doubled die spread enlarges the base of the devices. (Larger than normal) Even on Machine Doubling on a DDO, it can remove part of the contour of the devices:

While the Machine Doubling is present, note that the devices contour was removed on a doubled die cent.
Machine Doubling that removed the contour of a normal device:


Also some flattening like on your coin will expand over the edges of the base. (Note the extra width the last 'T' on Trust?) Note the flattening distororted the shape of that device, falling partly over the devices. So on your coin, the circulation flattening alter the shape of the devices. They were normal, but flattened they look wider. So we need to consider this flattening when looking for doubled dies. A single widened device, should always first to be considered as damage to the coin. A single device will probably not be enlarged on a doubled die. The spread should be seen across the design. Sometimes on the Nickels on the reverse on the USA, there can be a wider spread on on end of the devices because of the spread of the hub process. So sometimes this can happen, but not usually on just one device that is wider, it probably will not happen that way.

CoopHome: Can usually a single device be altered on a doubled die? not usually. The stronger doubled dies will show direction from hub misalignment. Not often that a single device be affected. If so it would be very minor.
Richard S. Cooper
Some have asked about my images I use and I'm glad to say, you can now you can see the DVD in sections on youtube:
1. Intro, older coins, toned coins 2. Doubled dies 3. Die events, One of a kind errors 4. So called errors, Coin information 5. Coin information Types and Varieties, Overlays
Jefferson nickel doubled dies Wexler/Rebar complete listings

trail dies:http://www.traildies.com/
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 Posted 10/09/2022  12:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes my vote is for circulation flattening too.
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
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"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
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 Posted 10/09/2022  2:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dewlynn60 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I just posted it. Or view in my profile.
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 Posted 10/09/2022  2:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CCB420 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I didn't really think it was a DD, was just curious about the cause! However, haven't I seen several different attributed DD's that only one section, say the northeast portion of a coin, shows the doubling, yet doesn't show on the rest? Also, especially with jefferson's, that bottom flattening is what they are pointing to as the result of a DD?
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 Posted 10/09/2022  2:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CCB420 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I just get frustrated, especially when I look up a certain year, see what they are pointing at ad being the result of a DD, then pick up a different year, see what looks to be the exact same element, looking exactly the same as the DD, then there's nothing attributed to that year!!
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 Posted 10/09/2022  2:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CCB420 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Whoever is responsible for MD, or designed the machine, or ran the machine, even looked at the machine, that's causes Machine Doubling needs to endure a slow painful sickness or injury!! I'll stop short of wishing em dead, but I'm rethinking that position as well
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 Posted 10/09/2022  2:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
But you may be missing something. The spread factor. The spread factor will be raised/enlarged on the devices. On Machine Doubling it is a reduction/incuse area on a coin. Look for the spread. (Also on proof coin images, the flat field doubling is not part of the doubled die. So read the descriptions on the Doubling. See this could be a totally different story of what you see, or what is actually the doubled die/RPM. Note reading the description, it like hearing the joke, but not hearing the punch line. When in doubt, see what is wrong with your thinking and theirs. See the variety. If not seen or can't figure it out: Start a thread on that listing to get help seeing what you are missing? Best to know for sure, than to assume. (You know that punch line) Ask for clarification.
Richard S. Cooper
Some have asked about my images I use and I'm glad to say, you can now you can see the DVD in sections on youtube:
1. Intro, older coins, toned coins 2. Doubled dies 3. Die events, One of a kind errors 4. So called errors, Coin information 5. Coin information Types and Varieties, Overlays
Jefferson nickel doubled dies Wexler/Rebar complete listings

trail dies:http://www.traildies.com/
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10522 Posts
 Posted 10/09/2022  3:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add merclover to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You can see your harsh cleaning. Never ever ever clean your coins.
ça va bien aller

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 Posted 10/09/2022  8:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CCB420 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My cleaning on this one was an overnight soak in acetone, then twisting one of those fat safety qtip meant for babies ears,fairly gently! But again it was in the corner of these ppls carport for?
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