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jbuck's Avatar
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 Posted 08/01/2023  11:28 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
just picked this one up... 1854 Crosslet 4 NGC MS62
Excellent!
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 Posted 08/01/2023  12:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ainsivalavie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
just picked this one up,
paid more than I wanted but on the other hand I haven't come across this variety in MS in quite some time. should play alongside my ms64 1/2P nicely.

1854 Crosslet 4 NGC MS62 (#2896411-013)

@Wade:
I've catalogued this token in the past. This one is certainly more beautiful than mine. Eventually, I would have to replace it with one from an uncirculated grade, but I was in no hurry, as I was waiting for the right deal.

Since, unlike the 1/2 Penny 1854 Crosslet «4», this variety for the 1 Penny is more common, especially in almost uncirculated and uncirculated grades.

All in all, it's a great example you've got.
Post-Your-Canadian-Tokens
I'm sorry if my English isn't perfect... I'm learning a little more every day.
Edited by ainsivalavie
08/01/2023 1:39 pm
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Wade's Avatar
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2781 Posts
 Posted 08/07/2023  4:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Wade to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
WOW

ICCS gave this an MS60 grade. Either someone was asleep at the wheel or the coin has been switched out.

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 Posted 08/07/2023  6:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You're right. It certainly is not 60, or the UNC understanding that generally a 60 would give.
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 Posted 08/18/2023  8:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ainsivalavie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Wade: WOW

ICCS gave this an MS60 grade. Either someone was asleep at the wheel or the coin has been switched out.

Given that I have nearly 1000 examples of this series of tokens in my image bank that are graded by the leading TPGs, you can probably imagine that I've seen a huge number of over/under graded examples. In fact, unless it's a really extreme case, otherwise I don't even mention it anymore.

However, in this case, I can't say whether the grade is really overrated by ICCS, or whether it's more a question of lighting (And/Or the sleeve) that produces this effect. So I'll remain neutral for the moment.

On the other hand, in the last 2 years, there's a misidentification that I've seen again and again at NGC. Indeed, since there seems to be at least one employee with them who doesn't know these tokens at all, and who in my opinion perhaps thinks that the dot of the variety PC-6A2 (1 Penny 1850) is between the words «ONE» and «PENNY», rather than between tips of cornucopia.

Post-Your-Canadian-Tokens

So, of the 14 tokens currently contained in the NGC population report for this variety (All finish types combined), I was able to obtain photographs of 10 of them. As a result, 7 out of 10 are in fact the variety without dot (PC-6A1). And on the 4 tokens I haven't yet had the chance to observe, I wouldn't be surprised if this error ratio were similar, if not worse.

Note: The three tokens that are correctly identified were in the Robins collection.

So, to prove my point, here are the 7 misidentified specimens in photos:
- XF-45 / BN: https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/2811883-008/45/
- AU-55 / BN: https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/6674504-019/55/
- MS-62 / BN: https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/5853781-012/62/
- MS-62 / BN: https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/5949283-010/62/
- MS-63 / BN: https://auctions.hoskerhaynes.com/2...detail&year=
- MS-64 / BN: https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/4883756-011/64/
- PR-65 / BN: https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/4768436-001/65/

Let's just say you shouldn't rely too much on the NGC census for the 1 Penny 1850
I'm sorry if my English isn't perfect... I'm learning a little more every day.
Edited by ainsivalavie
08/18/2023 8:29 pm
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 Posted 08/19/2023  7:42 pm  Show Profile   Check 1960NYGiants's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 1960NYGiants to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Waiting on this one from Stack's:

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 Posted 08/19/2023  7:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bosox to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Great proof, Gene.
http://www.victoriancent.com

2011 & 2025 Fred Bowman Literary Award Winner, 2020 J. Douglas Ferguson Award Winner, & 2022 Paul Fiocca Award Winner. Life Member of RCNA.
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 Posted 08/20/2023  02:36 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialtokens to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

From my narrative of 25-30 years ago.

120 R-2

Note - This variety is easily confused with that of variety 121.
Perfect die ensamples are extremely difficult to properly ascertain.

Note - All variety 120 ensamples privy to the authors' exhibit reverse Die-Clash marks. Whereas no ensample privy to the authors' of variety 121 exhibits reverse Die-Clash marks. This is a tell-tail diagnostic differentiating varieties 120 and 121.


Obverse characteristics:

The left end of the Stand of the numeral 4 in the date is betwixt the 3rd and 4th Denticles to the immediate right of the numeral 5.

Note - Doctor Courteau references variety 120 as on-line with the left-side of a Denticle. This is somewhat misleading.

When comparing the placement of the left-side of the Stand of the 4's of varieties 121 and 121, in relationship to the Denticles, variety 121 is genuinely on-line with the left-side of a Denticle. The left-side of the Stand of variety 120 is noticeably further to the left of the Denticle than variety 121, enough so to be more appropriately referenced as 'betwixt.'

Concerning variety 121, Doctor Courteau mentions the 4 is away from the 5. Doctor Courteau makes no such disclaimer concerning variety 120. Does this statement indicate that the 4 on variety 120 is nearer the 5? When compared with variety 120, the numeral 4 on variety 121 is noticeably more distant from the numeral 5.

An imaginary line along the right-side of the Upright of the numeral 4 extends to the right-section of the Stand of the right Upright of the initial H, below the ground.

An imaginary line along the upper-side of the diagonal of the numeral 4 extends to the nadir of the lower section of the Leg of the Ampersand, below the ground.

The Man's left Foot is Perfect.

The upper outline of the left Wing of the Dragon is Perfect.

Two heavy horizontal lines are below the left Wing of the Dragon.

A fork line is below the Man's right Arm.

The lower branch is slightly shorter than the upper branch.

Note - This is another subtle nuance betwixt this variety and that of variety 121. Variety 121 has but one line which is longer and having a double curve.

Note - The engraver did a poor job in cutting the details of this area. The details may not be readily apparent on lower grade ensamples.

The left Bridle Rein is well struck and joins to the underside of the mid-section of the right Bridle Rein.






The outline of the Belly of the Horse is double-cut.

The Knob to the Dagger-hilt is nearly round, and is joined to the Man's right Hand.

The left Leg of the Dragon is weakly attached to the Body of the Dragon.


From perfect and broken dies.

A Die-Crack is to the K in BANK.

This Die-Crack is from the right-side of the Denticle to the immediate right of the K in BANK, extending through the right-section of the Serif of the Arm of the same letter, exiting the mid-section of the Stand of the Leg of the same letter, and extending to upper corner of the 5th Mantle Fold.

A Die-Crack is to the 1st P in UPPER.

This Die-Crack is from the left-side of the Denticle above the centre of the 1st P in UPPER, extending through the curve of the same letter, extending through the apex of the Crest of the Man's Helmet, exiting the upper right corner of the same Crest, and extending through the Head of the Horse, exiting the mid-section of the Snout of the Horse, and extending to the Ankle of the left Foreleg of the Horse.

A Die-Crack is to the right ground.

This heavy Die-Crack is from betwixt the Denticles to the immediate right of the 3rd A in CANADA, extending to the upper-section of the slope of the underside of the right ground, and turning abruptly 90#778;upward through the left Paw, Thumb, and right Foreleg of the Dragon, exiting to the Neck of the Dragon.

A Die-Crack is to the left Rosette.

This long circuitous and forked Die-Crack is from the left section of the Denticle below the lower Lobe of the left Rosette, extending through the centre of the same Lobe, exiting the upper corner of the left Lobe of the same Rosette, and extending to the mid-section of the underside of the slope of the left ground.

Latter die states have this Die-Crack extending through the ground and lumber Plank. Inside the Plank, the Die-Crack forks. The primary branch extends upward to the Rump of the Horse.

The left branch extends along the upper edge of the Plank and exits the upper right corner of the same Plank, and extends through the lower section of the Tail of the Horse, and continues upward through the midst of the same Tail, exiting the left-section of the upper curve of the same Tail, passing through the Die-Crack previously discussed (from the K in BANK), and extending to the bottom of the 4th Mantle Fold. The Die-Crack extends along the inner edge of the Mantle, exiting to the lower corner of the 2nd Mantle Fold.

Note - This Die-Crack was not mentioned by Doctor Courteau.

A Die-Crack is to the R in UPPER.

This Die-Crack is through the centre of the Denticle above the Upright of the R in UPPER, extending to Serif of the same letter, on-line with the left-side of the same Upright.

Note - This Die-Crack was not mentioned by Doctor Courteau.

A Die-Crack is to the N in CANADA.

This Die-Crack is from the left-side of the Denticle betwixt the 2nd A and N in CANADA, extending to the upper left corner of the Serif of the Upright of the same N, extending through the same Upright, and exiting the mid-section of the Stand of the same Upright, and extending through the mid-section of the Hoof of the left Foreleg of the Horse, and turning abruptly 90#778; downward, exiting slightly to the right of the Heel of the same Hoof, and continuing through the Ankle of the right Foreleg of the same Horse, and exiting to the top of the Head of the Dragon.

Note - This Die-Crack was not mentioned by Doctor Courteau.

A Die-Crack is to the numeral 1 in the date.

This Die-Crack is from the centre of the Denticle below the right-side of the Stand of the numeral 1 in the date, extending to the bottom of the right-side of the same Stand, exiting the mid-section of the Top of the same numeral, extending through the ground to the Tip of the Tail of the Dragon, exiting the 2nd curve of the same Tail, and extending to the Knee of the right Foreleg of the Horse.

Note - This Die-Crack was not mentioned by Doctor Courteau.

A Die-Crack is to the CANAD in CANADA.

This diagonal Die-Crack is from the left-side of the Denticle above the Upright of the R in UPPER, extending to the mid-section of the left-side of the C in CANADA (running close to the top of the same R), and continuing through the bottoms of the letters ANAD in CANADA.

Note - This Die-Crack was not mentioned by Doctor Courteau.


Reverse characteristics: According to Doctor Courteau, basically the same as variety 121.


The Stand of the T in TOKEN is Perfect.

The Stand of the N in TOKEN is Perfect.

The outline of the Union Jack ends in a small fork.

The outline of the Union Jack below the K and E in TOKEN is weak. A short fork (to the left) is on-line with the Serif of the E in TOKEN.

The St. Andrew's Cross below the E in TOKEN is broken in the middle.

The St. Andrew's Cross frame does not extend to the base of the Shield, but rather merges with the underside of the Fork of the Union Jack


The Union Jack and St. Andrew's Cross frame are close together.

The hole in the Battle Axe appears as a large depression.

The inner ornamental Balls are disconnected from the Cornucopia.

The Four Dots comprising the Anchor Rope Dots betwixt the Feather and Anchor Shaft are irregular; the last Dot is tiny.

The Anchor Rope ends with one Dot and a thin line. A small Dot is attached to the underside of the line.

The Anchor Ring is complete.

The 2nd and 3rd quadrants are much heavier than the 1st and 4th.

Multiple Die-Clash Marks are about the Head of the Battle-Axe.

Being struck from 'upset dies' or a coinage die-axis, the mimicked image is shewn in reverse. Vertical parallel Die-Cracks are to the left and below the Head of the Battle Axe. Widely spaced horizontal clash marks are above and to the right of the Head of the Battle Axe.

Note - All ensamples privy to the authors' exhibit the Die-Clash marks. Whereas no ensample privy to the authors' of variety 121 exhibits Die-Clash marks. This is a tell-tail diagnostic betwixt varieties 120 and 121.

A Speck is before the E in ONE.

Note - The authors' believe Doctor Courteau's utilization the word 'before' is the 'Old English' definition of 'after.'

A large faint oval-like Dot-like mark is to the right of the E in ONE. The 'Speck' is slightly below the upper arm of the E, and on-line slightly to the left of the large Dot centered betwixt the lower sections of the E in ONE and the H in HALF.

Note - This Dot is not readily discernable.

From perfect dies.


Thus:

120 Perfect - no Die-Cracks.
120A A Die-Crack is to the tip of the right ground.
120B Die-Cracks as above, plus a Die-Crack is to the K in BANK (obverse).
Die-Cracks as above, plus a Die-Crack is to the 1st P in UPPER.
Die-Cracks as above, plus a Die-Crack is to the R in UPPER.
Die-Cracks as above, plus a Die-Crack is to the N in CANADA.
120C Die-Cracks as above, plus a Die-Crack is to the 1 in the date.
Die-Cracks as above, plus a Die-Crack is to the CANAD in CANADA.
Die-Cracks as above, plus a Die-Crack is to the left Rosette.

Note - Many Die-Cracks were not mentioned by Doctor Courteau.

This is the Die-Crack progression.





Note - The Die-Cracks of varieties of 120 and 121 prove rather easy to ascertain. Perfect ensamples, absent any Die-Cracks, are most difficult to positively identify once the 'speck' to the E in ONE on variety 120, or the 'speck' betwixt the Pineapple and N in TOKEN on variety 121 have been eroded away. The specific variety cannot be positively ascertained with any reasonable degree of certainty unless compared with known 120 or 121 ensamples. The 'gap' betwixt the curve of the numeral 5 and the terminal of the horizontal of the numeral 4 is more distant on variety 121.

Note - All variety 120 ensamples privy to the authors' exhibit reverse Die-Clash marks. Whereas no ensample privy to the authors' of variety 121 exhibits reverse Die-Clash marks. This is a tell-tail diagnostic betwixt varieties 120 and 121.
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 Posted 08/20/2023  1:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ainsivalavie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@Colonialtokens:
I'd like to hear your thoughts on a particular 1/2 Penny 1854.
The reverse is clearly the one used for the varieties Courteau #144, #145 and #146.

But for the obverse, it seems at first sight to be a variety not listed by Courteau. I've looked at your various posts you've made on the subject on the forum, and I wonder if it might be what you call #145-1 or #145-2?

However, on the present token, there's a die crack through the letter «canAda» that isn't listed on the die cracks summary you had published for the 1/2 Penny 1854.

Post-Your-Canadian-Tokens
Post-Your-Canadian-Tokens

Post-Your-Canadian-Tokens
Post-Your-Canadian-Tokens
I'm sorry if my English isn't perfect... I'm learning a little more every day.
Edited by ainsivalavie
08/20/2023 1:11 pm
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 Posted 08/22/2023  8:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialtokens to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Great token Should be MS 63 or better.

Well, back to the drawing board.

A contender for a new variety or at least a new die-state.

Possible obv 145. Rev 144.

FYI


The following synoptic pages are not intended to be a ready quick-fix, but a valuable tool in initiating the variety identification process. This tool aids by quickly eliminating many varieties from consideration. And perchance may quickly identify varieties having unique diagnostic characteristics.

Note - Presently, varieties 115 and 155 are not available.


PLACEMENT OF THE NUMERAL 4 RELATIVE
TO THE ABBREVIATION BELOW THE GROUND


An imaginary line along the right-side of the upright of the numeral 4 is on-line with:


The left Upright of the initial H. 111, 116, 118, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 145-2, 149.

Betwixt the Uprights of the initial H. 114, 129, 131, 139, 144, 144-1, 150, 152-1.

The left-section of the Stand of the right Upright of the initial H. 112, 132, 147, 148, 154, 156, 157.

The mid-section of the right Upright of the initial H. 113, 117, 119, 123, 126, 129-1, 137, 138, 140, 141, 141-1, 143, 145, 145-1, 146, 151, 152, 153, 158, 158-1.

The right-section of the right Upright of the initial H. 119-1, 120, 121, 122, 130.

Betwixt the initial H and the Ampersand. 124, 125, 127, 128, 130-1, 142.


An imaginary line along the upper-side of the diagonal of the numeral 4 is on-line with:

Betwixt the initial H and the Ampersand. 114.

The left-section of the Base of the Ampersand. 111, 133, 134, 135, 136.

The nadir of the Base of the Ampersand. 112, 116, 118, 129, 131, 132, 139, 147, 148, 149, 152-1.

The vertex of the Base and Leg of the Ampersand. 126, 144, 144-1, 150, 151.

The underside of the upper section of the Leg of the Ampersand 113, 119, 119-1 121, 129-1, 152, 154, 158-1.

The underside of the mid-section of the Leg of the Ampersand. 117, 122, 123, 128, 130-1, 138, 140, 141, 141-1, 145, 145-1, 153, 156, 157.

The nadir of the Leg of the Ampersand. 120, 130, 137, 143, 145-2, 146, 158.

The vertex of the Leg and Tail of the Ampersand. 142.

Terminal end of the Leg of the Ampersand. 124, 125, 127.


Numeral 4 in relationship to the Denticle:

Left-side: All, save those listed below.

Centre 122, 124, 128, 137, 149, 152.

Betwixt 117, 118, 120, 127, 132, 142, 143, 148, 151, 153.

Right-side 113, 125, 129, 139.

4 Canted right: 119-1, 124, 125, 128.

4 Canted left: 118, 145-2, 149.

Man's left Foot is:

Perfect All, save those listed.

Complete / Weak 114, 124, 130, 131, 132, 134, 138, 142, 143, 144-1, 145-1, 154, 158.

Missing 111, 112, 114, 133, 146, 150, 152.

Note - Variety 114 is found having a perfect, weak, or missing Foot.


Lines below left Wing:

2 Lines 113, 114, 116, 117, 118, 119-1, 120, 121, 122 123, 126, 127, 128, 129, 129-1, 130-1, 132, 137, 139, 140, 141, 141-1, 142, 143, 144, 145, 145-2, 147, 148, 149, 151, 152-1, 153, 157, 158-1.

2 weak Lines 114, 124, 125, 138, 143, 152.

1 Line 111, 135.

No Lines 112, 114, 119, 130, 131, 133, 134, 136, 144-1, 145-1, 146, 150, 154, 156, 158.

Note - Variety 114 is found having a perfect, weak, or missing Lines.


Leg of Dragon detached: 111, 112, 113, 114, 116, 117, 119, 121, 128, 129, 129-1, 130, 130-1, 131, 133, 134, 135 136, 137, 139, 141, 141-1, 142, 143, 145, 145-1, 147, 148, 149, 150, 151, 153, 154, 156, 157, 158, 158-1.

Leg of Dragon attached: 118, 120, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 132, 138, 140. 145-2, 146, 152, 152-1.


Re-cut / Broken 5: 111, 121, 127, 130, 130-1, 133, 134, 135, 140, 152.

Missing / incomplete Wing: 111, 112, 133, 134, 144-1, 146, 150, 154.

Belly Not double-cut: 114, 127, 132, 152, 152-1.

Re-punched 2nd A in CANADA: 125.

Dot above left Ankle of Horse: 145-1.



The Union Jack

Perfect / Complete: All save Weak / Missing (last entry this grouping).

Complete; thin opposite the E in TOKEN: 135, 136, 145-2, 151, 152, 154.

Complete / normal; lower forked. 152-1, 156, 158-1.

Complete / weak below KE in TOKEN / forked: 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 149, 150.

Complete; re-cut below entire E in TOKEN: 113, 114, 116, 156.

Complete / heavy ; re-cut below KE in TOKEN 117, 118.

Complete; closely re-cut below E / not to base: 119, 119-1.

Complete; Double-cut to left below E in TOKEN:
The double-cut mimics a complete St. Andrew's
Cross frame. Lower of Union Jack forked right. 111.

Complete, does not extend fully to the base: 144, 144-1, 145, 145-1, 145-2.

Weak / Missing / below the KE in TOKEN: 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 130-1, 131, 132, 133, 134, 146, 153, 157,
158.

Corner of Shield ends diagonally 126, 127, 128, 129, 129-1, 130, 131, 132, 133, 134, 145-2.

Note - Variety 114 is found having a widely re-cut Union Jack or a normal Union Jack.

Variety 139 shews a complete heavy Union Jack, a complete heavy wavy St. Andrew's Cross frame and an independent line broken in the middle, betwixt the two.

St. Andrew's Cross frame:

Perfect / Complete: 129-1, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 141, 141-1, 142, 143, 144, 144-1, 145, 145-1, 145-2, 146, 151.

Complete / Wavy: 139, 140.

Broken / Weak in the middle: 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 130-1, 149, 150, 151, 152, 152-1, 156, 158-1.

Only upper and lower shews: 126, 127, 130, 132, 157.

Only Upper: 111, 116, 119, 119-1, 153, 154.

Only upper; trace of lower: 147, 153.

Missing / trace upper: 112, 113, 114, 117, 118, 128, 129, 131, 133, 147, 148, 158.

Note - Early die-states of variety 147 shew the upper and a trace of the lower. Later states shew a stub of the
upper.

Union Jack / St. Andrew's Cross frame:

Close together: 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 129-1, 141, 141-1, 142, 143, 147, 149, 150, 151, 152, 152-1, 156, 158-1.

Well separated: 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 144, 144-1, 145, 145-1, 145-2.

Distant / Merge: 142, 143.

Merge: 151, 152.

Wavy: 139, 140.

Deceptive (double-cut): 111, 116, 117, 118. The double-cut Union Jack mimics a complete St. Andrew's Cross
frame.

Anchor Ring quadrants:

Complete, 2nd and 3rd Heavier. All, save those otherwise listed.

1st & 4th weak; 2nd & 3rd normal. 118, 119-1, 124, 126, 131, 133, 137, 142.

1st weak; 2nd & 3rd heavy; 4th normal. 113, 114, 120, 145-1, 145-2, 146.

4th broken / weak: 119, 129, 133, 134, 141, 142, 143.



The T and N in TOKEN:

The Stands of the T and N in TOKEN are perfect on: 111, 112, 113, 114, 116, 120, 121, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 142, 143, 144, 144-1, 145, 145-1, 145-2, 146, 147, 148, 149, 150, 151, 152, 152-1, 153, 154, 156, 157, 158, 158-1.

The Stand of the T is perfect; the Stand of the N is complete, but not as heavy struck.

119, 119-1.

The Stand of the T is perfect; the Stand of the N is weak: 117, 118.

The Stand of the T is perfect; the Stand of the N is ˝ struck to the left and fully struck to the right.

114, 128, 129, 129-1, 141.

The Stands of the T and N are weak: 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 130, 130-1, 131, 132.

Of these, varieties 124, 125, 126, and 127 have a small Dot betwixt the K in Bank and the upper Rosette.

* N found perfect or having a weak left side. 141, 141-1.



The terminal of the Anchor Rope ends with:

One Dot and a thin line; a small Dot below the line. All, save those listed below.

One Dot and a thin line. 128, 129, 144, 144-1, 145, 148, 152.

One Dot 133, 134, 145-1, 145-2, 146, 153, 154, 157, 158 *.

No Dot 134. (on terminal varieties).

*Note - On high-grade ensamples, variety 158 shews as two tiny diagonal downward pointing Dots.


Varieties 153, 154, 156, and 157 have the terminal Anchor Rope Dot as a single Dot. However, concerning the horizontal row of three Anchor Rope Dots betwixt the underside of the lower section of the Anchor Shaft and the right Anchor Fluke we encounter a strong diagnostic marker. One group consists of three large uniform Dots, the left is near the Anchor Shaft. The other group shews three smaller Dots, with the left Dot even smaller, and distant from the Anchor Shaft. Details concerning each will be addressed as encountered.

Small / distant terminals meet 153, 154.
Large / near. 156, 157.

Miscellaneous concerning Reverse:


A faint circular Dot is centered betwixt the Pineapple, the bottom of the
right leg of the N in TOKEN, and the right Rosette. 121.

A faint oval-like Dot-like mark is to the right of the E in ONE. 120.

A large oval-shaped globular mass is to the right of the vertical of the upper
Serif of the E in ONE, on-line with the left-side of the regular large Dot. 141, 141-1, 142, 143, 156.

A large faint circular mass is very close to and slightly to the left of the
apex of the arc of the Anchor Rope atop the end of the blade of the Sword. 135, 136.

A rather large globular Lump is in the field, nearly touching, and slightly to the left
of the apex of the upper section of the Anchor Rope Dots above the terminal end
of the Sword. 153, 154, 156.

A large buttress-like mass is about the shoulder of the right-side Arm of the Anchor: 126, 127.

A bold Dot is in the field on-line with the upper corner of the left Lobe of the
upper Rosette. The Dot is a trifle closer to the Rosette than to the K. This Dot
is situated on-line betwixt the 2nd and 3rd Denticles to the immediate left of the
upper Rosette. 124, 125, 126, 127.

A Dot is mid-way betwixt the K in BANK and the upper Rosette, on-line with
the upper Arm of the same K. 144, 144-1, 145, 145-1, 146.

A Dot is on-line betwixt the 3rd and 4th Denticles to the right of the K in BANK
and is on-line with the mid-section of the left Lobe of the upper Rosette. 158-1.

A small Dot is in the upper section of the right section of the St. Andrew's
Cross. The Dot is near the left diagonal of the Cross frame, and is on-line
with the Upright of the E in TOKEN. 149.

A Dot is in the field betwixt the upper Rosette and the T in TOKEN. The Dot is
on-line horizontally with the right-side of the lower Lobe of the same Rosette,
and on-line vertically with the left-side of the upper right-side inner Crown Jewel. 156.

A small Dot is centred in the field betwixt the Knees of the Forelegs of the Horse. 151

A defect resembling a horizontal 'V,' consists of two independent crossing lines.
The upper arm is heavier and is from the upper section of the Man's Calf, extending
horizontally to the mid-section of the side of the Horse. A slightly thinner line is
from the left terminal end of the above line, extending back to the Man's right Leg
on-line with the top of the Man's Boot. 150.

The Serif of the Upright of the K in BANK (reverse) is triple-cut. 130, 130-1, 131, 132.

The lower left quadrant of the juncture of the Battle-Axe Head and Handle
is blocked. 130, 131, 132.


Die-Cracks Obverse


Numeral 1 120, 127, 138, 143.

Numeral 8 131, 154.

Numerals 854 131.

Numeral 4 125, 150 (x2).

Numeral 5 113, 146.

Thru Date 116, 141, 141-1.

B in BANK 114, 117, 122, 130, 141.

Betwixt B/A in BANK 137.

BA in BANK 131.

A in BANK 125, 131, 142 (x2), 156, 157.

N in BANK 119, 124, 148, 150.

K in BANK 112, 118, 120, 121, 122, 127, 130, 139, 140, 141, 150, 158.

thru BANK 117, 126.

O in OF 125, 146.

Betwixt O and F 131.

F in OF 114, 124, 146, 147.

Thru F UPPER CANADA 122, 131.

Betwixt F in OF and U 121.

To Mantle 113, 116, 122, 130, 132, 138, 147, 148, 151, 152.

Man's right Hand 147, 151.

U in UPPER 113, 118, 123, 143, 147, 148.

1st P in UPPER 112, 120, 121, 125, 128, 140.

1st P to Helmet 126, 140.

2nd P in UPPER 119, 122, 124, 142, 153.

Betwixt PE in UPPER 132.

R in UPPER 120, 137, 151.

PER C in UPPER CANADA 132.

PER CANADA 143.

UPPER CANADA 137.

From Horse to C 128.

C in CANADA 131.

1st A in CANADA 138.

N in CANADA 119, 120, 122, 128, 133, 139, 142, 143, 148, 150.

2nd A in CANADA 114, 118, 149, 150.

D in CANADA 129, 139, 146.

3rd A in CANADA 119, 122, 124, 126, 127, 137 (x2), 138, 147, 148, 151, 156.

CANAD in CANADA 120.

Thru Ankles of Horse 126, 140.

Right ground 116, 120, 123, 128, 130, 140, 153.

Left ground 116, 124, 126, 129, 137.

Left Rosette 120, 139, 147, 148, 151.

Right Rosette 141, 143.

Foreleg of Horse 139.

Man's Head 147.

Tail of Horse 147.

Hoofs of Horse 148, 149.


Die-Cracks Reverse


B in BANK 126, 140.

BAN in BANK 129, 140.

A in BANK 117, 119, 147, 148.

N in BANK 151, 152.

NK in BANK 126.

Crown 128, 129, 147, 148, 151, 152.

Shield 140, 147, 148.

Betwixt Rosette & T 121.

Betwixt T/O in TOKEN 144, 144-1, 145, 145-1, 146.

OK in TOKEN 146.

K in TOKEN 116.

N in TOKEN 140.

ON in ONE 126.

H in HALF 152.

ALF in HALF 126.

L in HALF 119, 129, 131, 132.

F in HALF 152.

P in PENNY 143.

2nd N in PENNY 137.

Y in PENNY 137, 143, 147, 148.

betwixt Y and Rosette 152.

Cornucopiae 117, 119, 126, 127, 128, 129, 139, 140, 142, 147.

Anchor 140, 152.

Left Rosette 142, 143.

To Pineapple 151, 152.


Obverse Die-Clash 111, 114, 119, 121, 123, 125, 129-1, 130, 130-1, 135, 137, 145-2, 156, 158-1.

Reverse Die-Clash 111, 114, 116, 119, 120, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 130, 130-1, 131, 132, 137, 141, 141-1, 142, 143, 145-2, 147.

03-18 / 06-20.
Valued Member
Canada
221 Posts
 Posted 08/23/2023  8:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ainsivalavie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@Colonialtokens:
Thank you for your thoughts and this great supplement.

We've clearly gone through similar stages, as I too have compiled this kind of summary for all the issues. However, mine are certainly not as detailed as yours, but they are generally still very useful. On the other hand, I use an Excel spreadsheet and the "Filter" function (See for example the photo below which corresponds to an old previous summary for some of the varieties for the 1/2 Penny 1852 Medal Axis), which is even more efficient.

For your information, I noticed that variety Courteau #144 was not mentioned in the «Leg of Dragon attached/detached» section.

Just a quick question: am I mistaken in thinking that the varieties you describe as #144-1 and #145-1 are in fact only varieties Courteau #144 and #145 respectively, which, after undergoing various polishings of the dies (Or simply the wear and tear of use), have lost some of their details?


So, even though I already had a great deal of this information, there were still some elements that I didn't know about, or hadn't thought to look into. That's why I would have liked to use some of this information for the next edition of my book on the subject (Scheduled for 2024 if all goes well). And so, would it be okay if I mentioned your name in the credits?

Note: I believe, however, concerning the various die states for the different varieties of 1/2 Penny 1854 that I've been able to obtain more data than you on the various die cracks (If your summary represents all your data). Since I had the chance to examine a relatively large batch of tokens in person or by photo.

Post-Your-Canadian-Tokens
I'm sorry if my English isn't perfect... I'm learning a little more every day.
Edited by ainsivalavie
08/23/2023 8:40 pm
Valued Member
Gebs's Avatar
Netherlands
115 Posts
 Posted 09/24/2023  12:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Gebs to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Came in this week.

Lower Canada half penny token LC-46A3

In a nice quality

Post-Your-Canadian-Tokens
Post-Your-Canadian-Tokens
Pillar of the Community
daltonista's Avatar
United States
1058 Posts
 Posted 09/24/2023  12:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add daltonista to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Good-looking piece, Gebs, and pretty scarce to boot, rated RRR in Withers (my bible), where it lists as W1446.




"If everything seems to be under control, you're just not going fast enough."
--- Mario Andretti


Edited by daltonista
09/24/2023 12:41 pm
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jbuck's Avatar
United States
189340 Posts
 Posted 09/25/2023  09:25 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Came in this week. Lower Canada half penny token LC-46A3
Very nice!
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