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8 Reales - Ferdinand VII - Sombrerete / Vargas - 1812

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Pillar of the Community
Czech Republic
803 Posts
 Posted 02/16/2012  2:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TwoKopeiki to your friends list
Hey, you leave my plastic tombs alone :)

Nice Sombrerete piece, Mathieu. In terms of the history, I didn't think Vargas was a general, but a superintendent of the mines at the time.
Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts
 Posted 02/16/2012  2:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MathieuMa to your friends list
Well, that's from the description from Stack's auction :D I have to admit that I didn't to my research on that one ...
How does it compare to yours ?

NB : I broke my first plastic tomb yesterday, a PCGS slab ... what a pleasure to hold the coin ! :p
Pillar of the Community
United States
2605 Posts
 Posted 02/16/2012  2:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add svslav to your friends list
Since I'm a complete dilettante in Mexican coinage, could you guys educate me on what that "3" signifies?
Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts
 Posted 02/16/2012  2:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MathieuMa to your friends list
TK : it seems he was a general, from what I can find while googling
- http://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...brerete-mint
EDIT : you were right, he was the superintendent of the mine :
http://hispanismo.org/numismatica/7...ricanas.html

As for the 3 - good question, I was wondering as well what it meant ...
My books are not specialized enough to have a hint on this, I'm looking for the info as well :)
Edited by MathieuMa
02/16/2012 2:46 pm
Pillar of the Community
Czech Republic
803 Posts
 Posted 02/16/2012  9:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TwoKopeiki to your friends list
Hi Mathieu,

Here's what Pradeau has to say about Sombrerete Provisional Mint:


Quote:

The Sombrerete region, one of the richest districts of Mexico, was discovered by Juan de Tolosa in 1555. It has a large number of mines, and up to 1883 it was estimated that these mines had produced ores valued at not less than one hundred and fifty million dollars.

The Sombrerete mint began operations on October 18, 1810, was closed July 16, 1811, re-opened during 1812 and definitely closed at the end of that year because of the proximity of the Durango and Zacatecas mints. It was not really a mint in the true sense of the word, as the municipal treasurer ordered the coining of silver in the denominations from 8 reales to 1/2 real to meet the need of this mining center. A Spanish civilian, Don Fernando Vargas, superintendent of the mines, had charge of coining operations and used his name on all coins manufactured. These pieces are known as the "Vargas issue." There are two distinct types: (1) the planchets with several counterstamps; (2) those in which both sides were struck simultaneously with crudely made dies.

The first tpe was coined during 1810 and 1811 and consisted of 8 reales pieces only. The striking of these was apparently done in three stages: first, the stamping of a dentelated border on both sides, leaving the center blank; then, the striking of one side with the crowned arms of Spain and R CAXA DE SOMBRETE (sic) within a roped circle; and lastly, the impressing of five punch marks, all incuse panels, on the other side. These punches are: at top, VARGAS; at left, a crowned horse's head over an S between two columns; in center, the date 1810 or 1811; at right, a crowned S between two columns; and below, what appears to be the Arabic numeral 3 but which in some pieces resembles an 8. It is apparent that this side was punched last, as the design on the other side shows bruises from the blows of the several stamps.

The coins of the second type bear the dates of 1811 (rare) or 1812, and were struck from complete dies. The obverse shows a shield and inscription similar to those found on the coins of the first type but with 8-R at left and right, outside of a rope-like circle. The reverse is similar to the earlier type, but the five component parts are not in depressed areas. The word VARGAS appears in large letters and is curved.

There is a four reales piece dated 1812, with 4-R at sides. This also bears the figure 3, meaning of which is not understood. The one and the half-reales are alike in design and show on the obverse two hemispheres crowned; around, SOMBRERETE. (name correctly spelled) FERDIN VII. The reverse has above, VARGAS; in center, the Bourbon escutcheon in oval; below, palm branches; at sides, R-1 or 1/2-R; in exergue, date 1811 or 1812.
Pillar of the Community
United States
2605 Posts
 Posted 02/16/2012  9:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add svslav to your friends list

Quote:
This also bears the figure 3, meaning of which is not understood.

That is weird, the 3 is very prominent, it had to mean something to the people who made it. Interesting that nobody seem to to have solved the mystery ...
Valued Member
Germany
194 Posts
 Posted 02/17/2012  5:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dosmundos to your friends list
Indeed, the meaning of the 3 remains an unsolved mystery until today.

Great coin, the denomination outside of the shield is not always seen, so this can actually be considered a fully struck coin!

Which, by the way, is ten times more important than the grade in these issues.

I have seen a fake of these on ebay a long time back, unfortunately I didn't save the image. I remember the counterfeiter managed to misspell the legend, but I'm not sure if he wrote "Caxas de Sombrete" or "Caxa de Somberete".
Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts
 Posted 02/17/2012  5:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MathieuMa to your friends list
I know such complete ones are very scarce :)
It doesn't look that much circulated in fact (that's why I was asking), and the patina + edge are awesome.

About fakes, I saw this one on sale quite recently, it looks like a cast one :
8-Reales---Ferdinand-VII---Sombrerete-/-Vargas---1812
Pillar of the Community
Czech Republic
803 Posts
 Posted 02/18/2012  11:56 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TwoKopeiki to your friends list
I agree, it's pretty much as nice as these come.
Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts
 Posted 05/03/2014  06:58 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MathieuMa to your friends list
That coin just got a couple of friends :)

Here is the 4 reales :
8-Reales---Ferdinand-VII---Sombrerete-/-Vargas---1812
8-Reales---Ferdinand-VII---Sombrerete-/-Vargas---1812
8-Reales---Ferdinand-VII---Sombrerete-/-Vargas---1812

And here is the 1/2 reales :
8-Reales---Ferdinand-VII---Sombrerete-/-Vargas---1812
8-Reales---Ferdinand-VII---Sombrerete-/-Vargas---1812

The hunt continue for the 1 and 2 reales, as well as the scarcer earlier type :D
Valued Member
Germany
194 Posts
 Posted 05/03/2014  11:12 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dosmundos to your friends list
My "like", although it didn't come as a surprise :-)
Valued Member
Spain
110 Posts
 Posted 05/12/2014  01:06 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add moneditis to your friends list
Sombrerete / Vargas. Nice spanish words combination
Pillar of the Community
Germany
1849 Posts
 Posted 05/12/2014  11:57 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add GERMANICVS to your friends list
I agree moneditis, it has a nice ring to it.
Also, Guadalupe y Calvo, Real del Catorce, Leon de Guanajuato, Real del Monte, etc...
Many places and names in Mexico which evoke another era. Not to mention those places whose names are derived from the Aztec and Mayan language and which are impossible to pronounce.

New Member
United States
1 Posts
 Posted 01/22/2017  01:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cecenas to your friends list
Hi, beautiful coin! Any feedback on where to locate something similar to this? My family is from this region and I saw a few photo's doing some research.
Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts
 Posted 01/26/2017  08:26 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MathieuMa to your friends list
This is not a common coin, you'll only get it from serious auction houses / seller.
That one came from Stack's & Bowers (stacksbowers.com) - you can also check on Heritage Auctions (ha.com) for example.
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