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Posted 05/23/2012 12:58 pm
Namachieli, I really appreciated this post so I wanted to respond specifically some.
1. numismedia/NGC is one list. Many do use it as a general guide. IMO, it and the PCGS lists are rather high. Greysheet and truer WHOLESALE lists tend to run around 80% of that. Heritage shows the wholesale and retail list prices for their auction coins - if you're signed in. I tend to target the lowest wholesale they list. Which again tends to be roughly 75%80% of numismedia retail.
2. You mention reading dealers. That is an astute point and there was an interesting thread a while back on dealers at coin shows that don't mark prices. IMO, some do this to "profile" customers and give out different prices based on what they think they might pay. Some collectors/buyers HATE THAT and won't even talk to dealers that don't list prices. I just consider it part of the "haggling game". Most dealers will come off their listed/quoted prices at least a little. You being young and BIG will intimidate or "be profiled wrong". I'm not a fan of the practice because I hate watches/jewelry and wear tennis shoes. So some don't realize I am dead serious when talking cash for a 4 figure coin. I am not just a "lookee lou" or "all seeum - no buyem" as a couple dealer friends of mine say. Some dealers deal coins that fluctuate so much ( gold, bullion, high end ) that they don't want to re-price their whole offerings every show. I can understand that and if they are reasonable I don't mind having to ask for each coin I'm interested in.
3. I agree that a "How much are you asking?" or "Would you accept X-dollars for it?" are the lines I typically use to start the process. And I always say "That's just a little out of my range I'm afraid" when it is ridiculously high and "Thank You for showing it to me" no matter what.
4. One item that isn't talked about a lot is the BIG DIFFERENCE in haggling and buying slabbed ( PCGS and NGC ) coins versus raw ( and I consider almost all other certifiers as no better than raw ). It is tons easier to get raw coins at like 60%-70% of their numismedia listed prices compared to even 85% for slabbed coins. The plastic makes a ton of difference to most sellers. So I certainly take that into consideration when haggling.
Thanks for a most interesting post.
Happy coining all!
1. numismedia/NGC is one list. Many do use it as a general guide. IMO, it and the PCGS lists are rather high. Greysheet and truer WHOLESALE lists tend to run around 80% of that. Heritage shows the wholesale and retail list prices for their auction coins - if you're signed in. I tend to target the lowest wholesale they list. Which again tends to be roughly 75%80% of numismedia retail.
2. You mention reading dealers. That is an astute point and there was an interesting thread a while back on dealers at coin shows that don't mark prices. IMO, some do this to "profile" customers and give out different prices based on what they think they might pay. Some collectors/buyers HATE THAT and won't even talk to dealers that don't list prices. I just consider it part of the "haggling game". Most dealers will come off their listed/quoted prices at least a little. You being young and BIG will intimidate or "be profiled wrong". I'm not a fan of the practice because I hate watches/jewelry and wear tennis shoes. So some don't realize I am dead serious when talking cash for a 4 figure coin. I am not just a "lookee lou" or "all seeum - no buyem" as a couple dealer friends of mine say. Some dealers deal coins that fluctuate so much ( gold, bullion, high end ) that they don't want to re-price their whole offerings every show. I can understand that and if they are reasonable I don't mind having to ask for each coin I'm interested in.
3. I agree that a "How much are you asking?" or "Would you accept X-dollars for it?" are the lines I typically use to start the process. And I always say "That's just a little out of my range I'm afraid" when it is ridiculously high and "Thank You for showing it to me" no matter what.
4. One item that isn't talked about a lot is the BIG DIFFERENCE in haggling and buying slabbed ( PCGS and NGC ) coins versus raw ( and I consider almost all other certifiers as no better than raw ). It is tons easier to get raw coins at like 60%-70% of their numismedia listed prices compared to even 85% for slabbed coins. The plastic makes a ton of difference to most sellers. So I certainly take that into consideration when haggling.
Thanks for a most interesting post.
Happy coining all!
Quote:
For me I like using numismedia.com. I have found that they are usually right on the money of the realized price I negotiate to, which tells me they do their homework.
Unfortunately, it's all a big game of negotiation, which seems to be a problem for some people (my wife included). It is really hard to know;
"How much less should I offer?"
"Is this coin already priced really competitively?"
"I really like <x> about this coin, but is it worth $50 over fair market value?"
You have to be able to read people, feel it out. Everyone has their own styles for initiating this process. I play a lot of poker, so perhaps that has helped me a lot, but one thing you have to be very aware of is your 'table image'.
I'm fairly young (26), 6'3", broad and thick (former Marine), I have a facial hair, I usually wear a t-shirt with a button up shirt loosely buttoned over it, and I carry a small backpack to keep my things with me.
My image, to most dealers (who don't know me) is; "Another price-list jerk kid who is gonna kick the tires on 20 coins, waste my time, and try to make a buck off of me."
Understanding that, I make sure I take the dealer's perception in to account. I hover, look around, decide on 2 or 3 coins I actually am interested in buying, look up numismedia prices for the grade as well as +/- a grade, and once I have all that, make solid eye contact, give a friendly greeting, and ask "I'm interested in these 2 coins, may I take a look at them?"
I look them over and decide if I am still interested. Now at this point you have to read the dealers body language and pay attention to how busy they might be at the moment. Again, I am just wasting his time kick the tires, so he would rather help someone about to give him money. That's fine, I can be patient. When I finally get his attention I have already decided that I want to buy this coin, The price I'm going to try for, and the price I'm willing to pay.
I'e found that during negotiations, the following phrases usually get a positive response.
"How much are you asking for this coin?" (if it isn't marked)
"would you be willing to do <$>"
"I'm more comfortable at <$>"
"How far apart are we?"
Phrases I try to stay away from;
"Can you take <$> off?"
"That's more than I want to pay"
"How much are you in to this coin?"
The one thing I've learned is coins generally fall in to two categories;
Coins that you will see more than once in a couple years.
Coins you will only see once every few years.
In a case of the former, if you are too far apart, then that's ok, You can offer what you feel is right, and they can ask what they feel is right, and sometimes it just doesn't work out. Move on, there will be another. There are plenty of 1897 Morgan dollars in MS64 holders out there.
But for the latter, as long as they aren't asking some ridiculous amount over value on the coin, If you like it, buy it, and forget about it. These coins don't come around often, and most likely are under valued in the long run anyway. You know these kind of coins, one of them is in GTP right now.
https://goccf.com/t/118788&whichpage=14
If you are looking for a nice, MS64/65 PAN-PAC half, with light toning on original surfaces, and you come across that coin in a 64 PCGS holder, Numismedia says $1,190 in 64 and $2,160 in 65. If you were already looking for a 64, you were prepared to pay at least $1,150 ish, but you find this exquisite example, and he wants 1,250? Maybe ask if he will take $1,225, but for the most part, I would just buy it and say thank you.
Kind of a long winded post, but I hope you find my point of view useful in some way.
For me I like using numismedia.com. I have found that they are usually right on the money of the realized price I negotiate to, which tells me they do their homework.
Unfortunately, it's all a big game of negotiation, which seems to be a problem for some people (my wife included). It is really hard to know;
"How much less should I offer?"
"Is this coin already priced really competitively?"
"I really like <x> about this coin, but is it worth $50 over fair market value?"
You have to be able to read people, feel it out. Everyone has their own styles for initiating this process. I play a lot of poker, so perhaps that has helped me a lot, but one thing you have to be very aware of is your 'table image'.
I'm fairly young (26), 6'3", broad and thick (former Marine), I have a facial hair, I usually wear a t-shirt with a button up shirt loosely buttoned over it, and I carry a small backpack to keep my things with me.
My image, to most dealers (who don't know me) is; "Another price-list jerk kid who is gonna kick the tires on 20 coins, waste my time, and try to make a buck off of me."
Understanding that, I make sure I take the dealer's perception in to account. I hover, look around, decide on 2 or 3 coins I actually am interested in buying, look up numismedia prices for the grade as well as +/- a grade, and once I have all that, make solid eye contact, give a friendly greeting, and ask "I'm interested in these 2 coins, may I take a look at them?"
I look them over and decide if I am still interested. Now at this point you have to read the dealers body language and pay attention to how busy they might be at the moment. Again, I am just wasting his time kick the tires, so he would rather help someone about to give him money. That's fine, I can be patient. When I finally get his attention I have already decided that I want to buy this coin, The price I'm going to try for, and the price I'm willing to pay.
I'e found that during negotiations, the following phrases usually get a positive response.
"How much are you asking for this coin?" (if it isn't marked)
"would you be willing to do <$>"
"I'm more comfortable at <$>"
"How far apart are we?"
Phrases I try to stay away from;
"Can you take <$> off?"
"That's more than I want to pay"
"How much are you in to this coin?"
The one thing I've learned is coins generally fall in to two categories;
Coins that you will see more than once in a couple years.
Coins you will only see once every few years.
In a case of the former, if you are too far apart, then that's ok, You can offer what you feel is right, and they can ask what they feel is right, and sometimes it just doesn't work out. Move on, there will be another. There are plenty of 1897 Morgan dollars in MS64 holders out there.
But for the latter, as long as they aren't asking some ridiculous amount over value on the coin, If you like it, buy it, and forget about it. These coins don't come around often, and most likely are under valued in the long run anyway. You know these kind of coins, one of them is in GTP right now.
https://goccf.com/t/118788&whichpage=14
If you are looking for a nice, MS64/65 PAN-PAC half, with light toning on original surfaces, and you come across that coin in a 64 PCGS holder, Numismedia says $1,190 in 64 and $2,160 in 65. If you were already looking for a 64, you were prepared to pay at least $1,150 ish, but you find this exquisite example, and he wants 1,250? Maybe ask if he will take $1,225, but for the most part, I would just buy it and say thank you.
Kind of a long winded post, but I hope you find my point of view useful in some way.
with checking PCGS & NGC certification look-ups for pricing info. Then again their values do not include CAC if represented on said coin. Ultimately, if I feel good about the the deal, that's it! I have had buyers remorse on a few occasions, but it sorta balances out if you get a (few) good deal(s).
