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 Replies: 26 / Views: 8,003 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1374 Posts |
I would be interested in seeing what you come up with. Tough for me to see exactly your PUPs. Maybe you can point it out or circle it in paint? Out of pocket as I'm traveling.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts |
One thing that might help in your pictures is to invert the coin and reverse it. That will put the clash marks right side up and oriented correctly as the would appear on a normally struck coin from the die that clashed.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1372 Posts |
Hey Conder... good to know you're watching this thread. The more I study these coins, the more befuddling it becomes. Most of what's going on with these coins isn't clashing at all, and isn't reversed. Some of it is classic clashing, but some of it is complete in detail and raised, not incuse. Take a look at this Half Cent on the PCGS site. Enlarge it in your browser to 400%. If you're using internet explorer that's easy to do. If using firefox, you'll need to hold down the "control" key and hit the "+" key to enlarge it to that point. There is a ton of "surface noise" on almost all of the coins from this time period. I am beginning to think that it was the mint's way to discourage counterfeiting, an early security measure, like an antiquated "strip in the dollar bill" sort of thing. The mint could look at a suspected counterfeit and if the counterfeiter didn't have a whole lot of dies ... they couldn't fool the government.Probably far fetched, but it's nearly impossible tofind a coin from this period that doesn't have elements of other denominations present. On the seated half that shows clashing on the obverse, the die it was clashed with was that of a Half Cent. That's why I was studying this image, to confirm that the coronet with the "rivet" in the corner was that of the braided hair Half Cent. This is really mind blowing. There is text in the curls of her hair, again it appears to be the "E Plurius Unum" from the acanthus foliate design of the reverse of the double eagle, but present at the same time are feathers from the headress of either the 1 dollar or 3 dollar gold (type 3). Here's the link to the Half Cent I mentioned. Take a little time if you can, and really study the surface noise on this coin, both obverse and reverse. Chance  Edited by Chancellor Sutler
09/12/2012 6:41 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1372 Posts |
For those who just can't see anything going on because they haven't studied the coins as much as I have in only the past 2 weeks ... check out inside Liberty's ear ...and you'll see an "X" followed by a series of dots, asterisks, and X's. nother "X" appears in the top rail of the coronet head band. and continues intothe field. This is the headband of a 1 dollar gold coin.
The more you study these, the more you'll see.
There's a banner to the left of Liberty's throat ... that runs almost to the star.
Chance
Edited by Chancellor Sutler
09/12/2012 7:02 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10045 Posts |
Quote:
It has design elements from the obverse of a twenty dollar gold coin. On the eagle's wing you will see the letter "T" ... There's an entire Liberty headband inpressed on the coin. If that's not weird enough for you ... look at the eagle's tail feathers. There's the design element from the reverse of the 20 dollar gold coin. I'm not doubting what you're seeing, but if we're talking about design elements being on the eagle's wing--you do realize the eagle is incuse on the die? In other words, if two die surfaces clash, the fields on the dies strike with the most force, and create depressions into the opposing die's fields. Only an extremely strong clash would transfer details into the incuse parts of the die, and only after the fields are punched in that far. I'm just stating the obvious here--and why the 1857 Snow-9 clash shows up in the fields.  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1372 Posts |
That's a typical clash, yes. And I am also in agreement that the force to imprint the designs would have to be tremendous and the die would likely be destroyed by the time details could be imprinted to the dies that would be on the highest points of the design. All of those would be incuse and reversed.
I don't know how these designs became transferred to the highest points on the coin, which would be the deepest recesses of the dies ... and why they are not reversed. Some are reversed ... but most are not.
The pictures are very revealing. If you haven't viewed some of this stuff highly magnified, you really should. The proof is in the pudding. The devices are distinct and not fuzzy manifestations of one's imagination.
Chance
Edited by Chancellor Sutler
09/12/2012 9:19 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1372 Posts |
That's a very nice snow-9. Mine's worn ... but it's cool nonetheless.
Chance
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Valued Member
United States
115 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1372 Posts |
One of the most interesting Seated quarters I have found offered for sale has the entire eagle's head from the reverse in the rock that Liberty's sitting on, to the left of the shield. It's got a lot of surface "noise" going on besides the eagle, but the eagle's head is cool. It's not reversed, and it's there in full detail. PCGS slabbed it as AU-50, but no mention of the "error" or variety. I have seen them notate an "8" in the rock on the holder. This is a little bit more dramatic. Chance  Edited by Chancellor Sutler
09/13/2012 10:44 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1374 Posts |
Great set, ldhair, thanks for sharing. I see that you have the S7, S8 and S9 with the quarter from S8. Has the half or $20 gold pieces been found? I'm also curious why we don't see the rim of the IHC inside the quarter, as the die is smaller and the rims do not align. Chance, I'm having a hard time finding your pick-ups on the Half Cent. Maybe you can circle or point out what you see with paint or photoshop? As DV mentioned, I wonder how these elements would end up inside the incuse part of the die. The only thing I can imagine is that a die was "re-hubbed". Imagine a die being filed or ground down, then re-hubbed with a different denomination. Seems much more cost effective than buying another blank die, and discarding the old one. And it makes sense they would rehub dies used for gold, as I imagine the soft metal is easy on die life and gold typically has much lower mintage numbers. Edited by Drsandman2
09/13/2012 6:43 pm
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Valued Member
United States
115 Posts |
"Great set, ldhair, thanks for sharing. I see that you have the S7, S8 and S9 with the quarter from S8. Has the half or $20 gold pieces been found? I'm also curious why we don't see the rim of the IHC inside the quarter, as the die is smaller and the rims do not align." I don't know of a half or $20 gold piece being found but anything is possible with these. We will never know how these clashes came about but the Midnight Minter story is a cool thought. The quarter is a really tough coin. If the half or $20 came on the market it would bring a strong price. I don't know the answer about the rim showing on the quarter. If someone comes up with something new on these clashes, Rick Snow is the guy to go to. If you send him high quality images he can give the answer. Rick is a really cool guy but if he can't see it in the image, there is little he can say. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1374 Posts |
I'm stuck on a quandary. For the IHC clash and the quarter clash to exist on their respective denominations means that one of the clashed dies was removed from the machine, then inserted into another or simply re-used later. Imagine a mint employee was done hammering quarters, and switched to Flying Eagle cents. He forgot to switch both dies out, or operated the machine to properly "seat" the first FEC die by dry firing the machine without a planchet. It would make sense that the subsequent FECs illustrated the clash... But then how do we explain the existence of the quarter with the FEC clash? The only explanation is that the clashed quarter die was later re-used in the minting process. HUMM! This scenario is what is described by Bowers. I think this explanation is very likely, especially now that we've identified Chance's FEC as having two clashes with its reverse, with a drastic rotation between clashes. It seems they were dry firing the machine to seat the dies. Surely the problem did not go un-noticed at the mint, as hammering dies against themselves can damage the dies, the minting press, produce crude coins, and probably makes a horrible noise. I think it would be interesting to search for FECs that contain only the first clash from Chance's coin, with a rotated die alignment... Imagine this scenario: The mint employee loads up 2 FEC dies and dry fires the machine to seat the dies. He punches a few coins, then notices the dies are not properly aligned. He makes the necessary adjustment, then dry fires again to re-seat the dies. Presto, you have two clashes from the same reverse die at different rotations. Edited by Drsandman2
09/14/2012 03:35 am
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New Member
United States
4 Posts |
Speaking of the 1857 Flying Eagle clash with a seated liberty 25 cent.....all the attributions I have see have it on the reverse. I have one that is on the obverse. I Have a Snow-7 in hand (which was my first time down the clash path) but this one is clearly a seated liberty (the banner is quite clear. I am working on getting a usable picture with the equipment I have on hand. Being new to this avenue of coin collecting I would like to hear everyone's thoughts. Thank you
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New Member
United States
4 Posts |
Note to above, the S-7 is with a 20$, you can see the coronet
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
Please create a thread of its' own for your coin, 2CentJimmy - it's a breach of forum etiquette to exhume a year-old thread like this.
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Posted 09/11/2012 3:12 pm
