| Author |
 Replies: 21 / Views: 3,952 |
Page 2 of 2
|
|
|
|
Bedrock of the Community
United States
10045 Posts |
Quote:
For the Chinese a fake is not a fake in the western sense...a reproduction is almost as good. Interesting because I'd like to hear all perspectives on this issue. While the above may be true, it's also true that people are refining their 'copying' simply to profit from passing their work off as real--for huge margins. Now, I don't begrudge the Chinese for their entrepreneurial success, but this is becoming a free-for-all needing better regulation, or our hobby will suffer immensely. Take for instance the "obscure" coins I collect from 17-19C. Scandinavia, where good fakes are flooding the market that even fool collectors in their respective countries. And, I've been told by veteran stamp dealers that forgeries have eroded collector confidence, subsequent demand, and value. I'd hate for that to happen to coins, but it may be inevitable with the onslaught of fake coins and even fake slabs.  Edited by DVCollector
01/23/2013 5:18 pm
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
567 Posts |
Making "replicas" for collectors has been being done for centuries in China. There have been cast replicas of Yuan Dyn. cash for at least six hundred years made specifically for collectors. What is different now is that the fakes coing out fo China are just so cheap to produce that they are flooding the market. You can go to Alibaba and search "coin" and you will have literally hundreds of manufacturers all over Chian quoting less than 60 cents per coin for replicas. They are usually csat (sand cast or spin cast) because it is cheaper than preparing dies. But die struck also comes from China as well. The same places that are maing tokens are making copies of coins by the same processes.
Bulgaria (i.e. Lipanoff Studio) has been churning out high quality struck copies of ancients for years too. They bedevil the ancients market. And who can forget the "Omega" counterfeits?
Making copies of legitimate coins in the same alloy has also been being done for centuries to just as convenience. It said that yes this piece of metal was the same weight and fitness as the original.
The incentive to make a 30 cent fake roman AE4 and stick it in a bunch of uncleaned coins and resell it for $2 is pretty strong when you're repeating the sale hundreds of times.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
1796 Posts |
To toss in my own experience, most of the fakes found "in the wild" that are submitted to The Black Cabinet are of Chinese origin, and they are *prolific*.
|
|
Bedrock of the Community
United States
10045 Posts |
Quote:
There have been cast replicas of Yuan Dyn. cash for at least six hundred years made specifically for collectors. Have the Chinese been collecting coins for 600+ years? That's interesting. I also wonder, with so many foreign silver "trade coins" used in commerce in the region, there must be incentive to pass off copies as the real thing--not for collecting, but as money? So I suspect this is where it all began--there was no central authority determining authenticity of coins in trade, except the merchants themselves. As in all situations, the profit incentive is greater than all else. If there's a distinction that bears repeating--fakes made in Bulgaria or anywhere are not usually sold as "collector copies". If they're done well enough, they're sold as the real thing--simply for reasons of maximum profit. We know this is all about money, don't we?  Sorry for the  |
|
Moderator
 Australia
16844 Posts |
Quote:
Have the Chinese been collecting coins for 600+ years? That's interesting. While historians can argue about whether the Chinese or the Greeks "invented coinage" first, there is no doubt whatsoever that the Chinese "invented coin collecting" first, in the form we would recognise it today. The oldest coin catalogues in the world are Chinese, written on traditional bamboo scrolls. If I recall correctly, the oldest intact scrolls date from the 1100s but they quote from earlier works (now lost to us) dating from the 500s AD. Quote:
I also wonder, with so many foreign silver "trade coins" used in commerce in the region, there must be incentive to pass off copies as the real thing--not for collecting, but as money? So I suspect this is where it all began--there was no central authority determining authenticity of coins in trade, except the merchants themselves. That's why "chop marks" were invented. Punching a deep countermark into a coin not only tested the coin to inform the merchant whether or not they had a silver-washed base-metal fake, but it also became a guarantee for subsequent users of the coin: "I, Li Quan Yi, have tested this coin and found it to be of good silver". Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
2838 Posts |
Quote:
The oldest coin catalogues in the world are Chinese, written on traditional bamboo scrolls. If I recall correctly, the oldest intact scrolls date from the 1100s but they quote from earlier works (now lost to us) dating from the 500s AD. Incredible - thanks for posting! As far as ancients go the fakes used to come from Bulgaria, many still do but as mentioned above the Chinese are now also pumping them out at worrying rates  Edited by bobbyhelmet
01/24/2013 6:20 pm
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
567 Posts |
I happened to be looking at some Yuan cash the other day. The copies are so old that you just can't tell the real from the fake sometimes but they're hundreds of years old. Mitchiner has a page on it in World of Islam.
In Russia there have been novodels struck by the mint since the late 1700's. Novodels are either later restrikes using the same dies or reproductions for collectors.
|
|
New Member
Portugal
47 Posts |
Posted Yesterday 1:09 pm As has already been stated, China is by far the primary source but you will also see counterfeits from other Southeast Asia countries and even Eastern Europe(primary source for fake ancients but also other counterfeits). The Middle East was known for producing counterfeit US classic gold coins in the 1950s/60s as tourist copies but the majority of them had a gold content that was reasonably close to being accurate. These gold "coins" were a way to bypass US laws concerning the possession of gold coins as classic gold could still be owned and repatriated. Of course, there would also be occasional design discrepancies that would reveal their origins. ANA R-3151318 What do you mean biokemist6 with saying "Of course, there would also be occasional design discrepancies that would reveal their origins." and linking to that topic |
|
Bedrock of the Community
United States
12437 Posts |
What I meant is already laid out in your thread regarding your gold dollar. The consensus was that you have a full gold weight counterfeit with an impossible design pairing, quite possibly of Middle East origin circa mid-20th century.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
2838 Posts |
Quote:
I happened to be looking at some Yuan cash the other day. The copies are so old that you just can't tell the real from the fake sometimes but they're hundreds of years old. So would these be considered 'fakes' in the way Barbarous Romans are or are they very old fakes produced for collectors way back in the past  |
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
567 Posts |
Old fakes. They never circulated as lega tender. Radiates were used as currency.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
2838 Posts |
Incredible - thanks for the info.
Getting very interested in Cash coins atm.
Edited by bobbyhelmet
01/25/2013 6:39 pm
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
2887 Posts |
|
|
Pillar of the Community
 United States
685 Posts |
Wow great input and a lot of knowledge here, thank you. Tokenmast, I meant Mark Hofmann, not Harman (too much CSI ). Mark Hofmann was a really good forger of Mormon stuff and spark erosion guru. I was kind of wondering if a group such as PNG put something out like: Source of fakes: Country_____________Comments Bulgaria:_10% of total__Many Ancients Lebanon:__8% of total__US gold China:____44% of total__Mexican colonial USA:______24% of total__US collectible Etc. ebay probably has numbers to support the country source of the sellers of fakes, but country of manufacture? Using the word fakes to avoid counterfeit/forgery semantics. Has anyone seen something empirical in this regard? |
|
Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
2838 Posts |
Quote:
Bobby - assume you mean the "limes" denarius? Not specifically - just wasn't sure if the Yuan in question were Unofficial or Semi-official circulating coins or like the Chinese faking of modern US coins aimed directly at a past collecting market. I must admit being a beginner spotting fake casts of Cash coins seems near impossible to me. With Romans at least they were struck and had 'art' on them which can aid identification of more modern reproductions. I'm guessing its quite a specialist skill. Edited by bobbyhelmet
01/26/2013 12:46 pm
|
|
Page 2 of 2
|
Replies: 21 / Views: 3,952 |
Page 2 of 2
|
First Page
Posted 01/24/2013 10:34 am
