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1817 Large Cent. Known Error?

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 Posted 02/22/2013  6:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list
That Terminal state con is spectacular - so much metal is going into the void left by the Cud that it's actually affecting the strike on the other side - the right-side crack has disappeared for lack of metal to fill it.
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 Posted 02/23/2013  8:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list
a very cool variety with a lot of die errosion showing off on this one! I like it.
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 Posted 02/24/2013  04:41 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list

Quote:
Pretty fantastic how quickly he replied.

I just happened to stumble onto it right after it was posted. The N-12 variety is an instant arms length variety. One glance and you see that heavy break joining the 1 and 7 and you know it's the N-12. Then it was just a matter of linking the two images.
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 Posted 02/24/2013  09:41 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add stringboogie to your friends list
really cool that they often used these dies till they got really bad
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 Posted 12/26/2020  7:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NumisEd to your friends list
Which cents do have this circular die crack through the stars?
Also, I don't understand what "N-12" means in the post by Condor101.
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 Posted 12/26/2020  8:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list
Super pick-up, congrats!
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 Posted 12/27/2020  04:37 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ExoGuy to your friends list
Great example of a late stage die error, BigAppleBucky. I was long attracted to the 1817 cents, given the "errors" like this. The 15 star variety was long a favorite of mine. Here's an earlier stage 1817 die crack for comparison to yours ....

1817-Large-Cent.-Known-Error?
1817-Large-Cent.-Known-Error?
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 Posted 12/27/2020  10:07 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list

Quote:
Also, I don't understand what "N-12" means in the post by Condor101.

The different die marriages of the middle (1816 -1839) and late dates (1940 - 1857) were originally cataloged by Andrews in 1882 and he used A numbers. In the late 30s' early 40's Howard R Newcomb re-cataloged them and just before his death in 1944 his book cataloging them was published he used N numbers (But for the most part the A and N numbers are the same) Ever since then the varieties for the middle and late date cents have been collected by "Newcomb" or N numbers. 1817 N-12 is the twelfth of the seventeen known die marriages for that year. The 15 star variety that Exoguy mentioned is N-16.
Edited by Conder101
12/27/2020 10:08 am
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 Posted 12/27/2020  11:57 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NumisEd to your friends list
So the number "N-12" has nothing to do with the circular die crack?

How about this one: https://www.greatcollections.com/Co...e-AU-Details
Edited by NumisEd
12/27/2020 12:00 pm
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 Posted 12/27/2020  10:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list
Here is the Newman Numismatic Portal's online page for Howard Newcomb's book. It is available for download in a PDF format if you so choose.

John Wright's book "The Cent" is an even better and newer book with photographs rather than line drawings but Howard was the original, John just took off with an updated newer book.

Howard Newcomb's Book:
https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/book/564828

John Wright's Book
https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/book/530759
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 Posted 12/29/2020  09:33 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list
Howard Newcomb's book wasn't the original either. His book was based On the book by Frank D Andrews (two editions, one 1882, one 1883)


Quote:
So the number "N-12" has nothing to do with the circular die crack?

The N-12 refers to the particular obv/rev dir pairing. (The obv is only used on N-12, the rev was used on both N-12 and N-15) Through the life of the obv die it goes through several different die stages from no cracks through heavily cracked with pieces falling out of the die. But MOST examples of N-12 do show at least some stage of the circular die crack. There are other middle date cents that show bold circular die cracks like this one. Two well known ones are 1818 N-10, and 1820 N-13.
Edited by Conder101
12/29/2020 09:36 am
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 Posted 12/29/2020  10:01 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NumisEd to your friends list

Quote:
There are other middle date cents that show bold circular die cracks like this one. Two well known ones are 1818 N-10, and 1820 N-13.


What about early cents (< 1815) with circular die cracks or small cents? Do these exist?
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 Posted 12/30/2020  12:06 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list
NumisEd, I'm not aware of any real die breaks on pre 1817 large cents, maybe it's due to the mint switching over to steam operated rolling presses in 1817? Not really sure why though, an interesting question. But the mint was either watching the dies more closely or not using as much force to strike coins and not striking as many pre 1817.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1981, ANS, Early American Coppers Member (EAC), Colonial Coin Collectors Club member (C4), Conder Token Collector Club member (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS) member, Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC) & Numismatic Bibliomania Society member (NBS), USMex, Member in good standing, 2¢ variety collector.

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 Posted 12/30/2020  11:28 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list

Quote:
What about early cents (< 1815) with circular die cracks or small cents? Do these exist?

Die cracks tend to run from point to point through areas of stress in the dies. The stars and their point tend to create these stress areas. The pre 1808 cents didn't have stars so they don't have circular die cracks on the obv, but do often have cracks through LIBERTY of the date as those are the stress areas on those dies. The reverse will often have cracks through the tops of the letters as well. Some time these will go most of the way around the coin but they usually aren't as visually impressive.

On the classic head cents 1808 - 1814, these do have stars but only two varieties seem to suffer from circular obv die breacks, 1810 S-285 (Late die stage) with the crack through the date and all the stars on the right hand side, and 1812 S-291 (Mid die stage and later) which actually does have pretty much a circular crack.

I haven't located a good image of a late stage of S-285 (there is a good one in Breens large cent book) but I have found one of 1812 S-291. The right hand crack runs through the bottom of the date up through all the stars ending just past the strat above the bust. The left hand crack starts at star 1, runs trhour all the stars, above the bust and and ends close to where the right hand crack ends.

1817-Large-Cent.-Known-Error?

OK this is the best I've been able to do for S-285, the crack is faint but is visible through the bottom of the date and stars 13 and 12. Then gets fainter but can then be see through the outer points of stars 8 and 7 into the field.

1817-Large-Cent.-Known-Error?
Edited by Conder101
12/30/2020 11:56 am
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 Posted 12/30/2020  11:51 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NumisEd to your friends list
Nice example!
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