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1799 Dollar - What Makes Me Suspicious?

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 Posted 09/09/2013  4:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list
B-5, not easy to counterfeit due to the crack through STATES and the missing serif of the U. Wear seems fairly common but the apparent "path" across the obverse makes me think it might be slightly bent.
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 Posted 09/09/2013  5:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add philadelphian to your friends list
I had been looking for other examples of B-5 BB-157 with similar central strike weakness or wear patterns, but not much luck.
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 Posted 09/09/2013  5:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinsKelly to your friends list
Is is common for the shield to be so strong when the rest of the coin is so worn? (One day I hope to be able to purchase one of these so I need to beef up on my knowledge).

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 Posted 09/09/2013  5:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add matthewvincent to your friends list
SsuperDdave,
Now you have me wondering about that die crack.
(My coin is on the left.)

1799-Dollar---What-Makes-Me-Suspicious?

1799-Dollar---What-Makes-Me-Suspicious?

The horizontal appears to me to be identical. My coin also has a small vertical die break.

Were these two coins made on the same pair of die?

I never intended to get into the vast world of early coin varieties. I only wanted a decent old dollar. But learn I must.

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 Posted 09/09/2013  5:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list
Yours is B-5. The missing serif on the "U" is characteristic.
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 Posted 09/09/2013  5:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add matthewvincent to your friends list
CoinsKelly,
I have no idea how common the weakness is. I obtained my example last December. The dealer tracked me down on the bourse floor at our local, small coin show and INSISTED that I hold it raw in my hand.
I was not looking for an example, but when I held it I WANTED it!
Since then I have been studying the examples offered on the Internet. ebay sends me an update everyday.
I fell in love with the reverse. THAT is an Heraldic Eagle.
We agreed that it was a solid VF-20 and the price was the Greysheet ask price.
Since then I have had two dealers wanting to buy it from me. Now that is a tribute to my foresight [or shear dumb luck!]
Let's hope that we both learn from this current discussion.
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 Posted 09/09/2013  5:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add philadelphian to your friends list
That missing "U" serif is actually found on three different reverse dies: P (which was used on BB-168), I (BB-158, 159, 160, and 161), but matthewvincent's reverse looks to be reverse H, which was only used on B-5 BB-157. His vertical die crack through the first T in STATES makes it the latest die state, IV, which is the rarest state of B-5 BB-157.
Edited by philadelphian
09/09/2013 6:00 pm
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 Posted 09/09/2013  6:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cipster to your friends list
Wow this is rocket science to me. I thought I knew a few things about early coins but....
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"You got to lose to know how to win".
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 Posted 09/09/2013  7:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nickelsearcher to your friends list
LOL cipster ... I've often felt the same way when reading the words of our true early USA coin experts.

Whenever there is a thread that elicits replies from Philadelphian, SsuperDdave and vermontensium ... then we as a forum are in for a treat of knowledge sharing not to be repeated anywhere else in the numismatic world.

My hat is off to those three folks ... great sharing of tremendous acquired knowledge.

My humble input towards the OP decision to bid or not ... be aware that Great Southern Coins has developed a poor reputation on the Bay ... primary gripe is that they 'doctor' their photographs to hide flaws and enhance eye appeal.

Assuming there is a reasonable return privilege for issues not seen in the photos ... then it appears that our wise experts have opined on the coins authenticity.

Good luck with it!

David
Take a look at my other hobby ... http://www.jk-dk.art
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 Posted 09/09/2013  8:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinsKelly to your friends list

Quote:
Whenever there is a thread that elicits replies from Philadelphian, SsuperDdave and vermontensium ... then we as a forum are in for a treat of knowledge sharing not to be repeated anywhere else in the numismatic world.


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 Posted 09/09/2013  8:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dave700x to your friends list
Roger that...
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 Posted 09/09/2013  9:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add matthewvincent to your friends list
And I, the OP, regard the opinions of the above mentioned three in high regard.
I would never have thought of a 'bend' but that makes a lot of sense.
nickelsearcher said it best " ... a treat ..."
cipster, take heart, as I am learning as you are.
I never intended to bid on it. I felt it an opportunity to learn, thanks to the good folk of the CCF.
Really, I only need one example and mine is dandy.
That it may be an interesting variety is just icing on the cake.


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 Posted 09/09/2013  9:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list

Quote:
That missing "U" serif is actually found on three different reverse dies:


Then Heritage deceived me, although I based that opinion on only one (obviously mistaken) auction writeup. Takeaway: I compromised my normal requirement for redundant results from reliable sources before considering something fact, and got burned for it.
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 Posted 09/10/2013  02:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bababooey to your friends list
nickel searcher:

I've heard that too about Great Southern Coins and their photos. I've bought several coins from them and have not been unhappy. However you do have to look closely at their photos. the photos are much better than average for ebay, and this impression may cause people to bid higher, driving up the price.

Their photos are quite nice, but after some practice I can replicate their photos they took of the coins that they sold to me! (without any 'enhancement')

I did not get the sense that they did any air brushing or 'photo shopping' to hide scratches, cleaning. Rather they tend to present the coin as best as possible, with the best lighting, etc where as other listings are all over the place.

The blurry and dark images that some use on ebay, tend to hind more details, scratches, cleaning, but it is harder to prove intent, rather than incompetence.

With Great Southern Coins, they seem to know what they are doing, so if the coin in person, is not as nice as the picture, I think people feel this was intentional. Clearly they are striving to get the best 'eye appeal', but I don't get the sense they are 'doctoring' to hide flaws, but could be wrong.

For example compare the OP's initial photo with Matthew's photo. Matthew's coin is is much better shape, more detail and better stuck. But the color, contrast and presentation of the coin for sale, make it look so nice, despite wear or a poor strike.
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 Posted 09/10/2013  06:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bpoc1 to your friends list
Wow! Very informative thread. Thanks all!
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