Counterfeits Are Taking Over Ebay, Slowly..

I was in the group who did not like or appreciate ebay kowtowing to the VERO's so I was very appreciative of Tabberone and the other sellers who refused to just give in. There were a great many good sellers, some of which had been on ebay since 96-97. I came along in late 97 and sold off and on small things back when ebay was a huge novelty and people would pay silly prices for things. Much like the record companies' drastic overreactions to users downloading songs, overzealous pursuit of copyright led to public embarrassment and may have actually made the problem worse.


I'd be curious to know if ebay considers listing a forgery grounds for getting NARU'ed, even if the seller claims no knowledge that the items were forgeries. For instance, say I inherited some coins that happened to be fake, and listed them, unaware that they were fake. It would be interesting to see if they simply delisted the items or if some sort of punishment was incoming, or if they require repeated offenses to consider a seller worthy of the ban hammer.

In the meantime I think it's wise to keep reporting suspected fakes, and look with careful eyes and common sense at coins that are priced way below market, high end/pricey coins that are not slabbed, coins from low-feedback sellers, or anything that just doesn't "feel" right, especially listings with claims like "no returns" or only 1 or 2 fuzzy, out of focus pictures. Good sellers want to show off their coins, not hide them.

Education of new coin collectors is very important and sadly neglected unless they happen upon this site or the ANA's. But it's that way for a lot of other hobbies. You tend to learn about deceptive sellers and deceptive items the hard way, whether you collect stamps, bottles, cars, records, or whatever.

False, completely false. Mere possession of counterfeit money
can get you up to 20 years. They look to intent, did you know
it was counterfeit.

Arthur, you are correct under 18 U.S. 25.472, it allows for a sentence -not to exceed- 20 years, but there is a second option (mutually exclusive) allowing for the imposition of a fine. The law as written makes possession unlawful as long as there is an intent to defraud, whether or not that intent is acted upon.

Of course, the odds of a Federal judge imposing such a draconian sentence for the mere possession of a handful of counterfeit coins are very slim. How many prosecutors would bother with the expense and hassle of full proceedings against some hapless fellow that had the misfortune of buying a few fake coins off ebay? If they prosecuted the matter at all, they'd probably let him off with a very light fine.

Perhaps you can share with us some "good information" such as a recent (within 20 years) case law citation where a United States citizen was sentenced to the full 20 years for the mere possession of coin forgeries bought at auction?

Remember that the Government has better things to do than go around looking for individual sellers of small amounts of forgeries. Prosecuting those cases is neither cheap nor expeditious, and there is no tangible benefit even if a successful prosecution and conviction is obtained, other than the removal of a minute fraction of a percentage of forgeries in general circulation, at the cost of taxpayer-funded imprisonment for 20 years at Camp Fed for the duly convicted. For every small scale seller you make an example of, a thousand more go unpunished.

Besides, the headline " ebay BIDDER SENTENCED TO 20 YEARS IN JAIL FOR BUYING FAKE COINS" doesn't play well with elected justices and attorneys nor with their constituencies. If anything, it drives the counterfeit market deeper underground, away from public channels, but the forgeries still end up in circulation.


Cf. 18 U.S. 25.485 (Whoever passes, utters, publishes, sells, possesses, or brings into the United States any false, forged, or counterfeit coin or bar, knowing the same to be false, forged, or counterfeit, with intent to defraud...), emphasis added.

Correct, Aahz. This was intended to illustrate that it is NOT, in fact, unlawful to merely be in possession of counterfeits (whether that's paper, coins, bars, stock, whatever), the infraction occurs when there is an intent to defraud.

Mr. Arthur seems to have been under the impression that it was unlawful merely to possess the items, this is clearly not the case.

However, I will say that it's up to whomever is interpreting the law to decide if you had "intent to defraud" or not. Actions such as offering the coins for sale on ebay are clear evidence of intent to defraud, but there are more grey areas, such as someone who is not aware the coin they are about to list is a forgery -- did they "intend" to defraud, or are they defrauding without intent?

Boy, that would be hard to prove. A regular ebay counterfeit dealer finally gets busted, but says, "Hey! I didn't know they were counterfeit! I thought I was selling real coins." Innocent until proven guilty - prosecutors would have to prove both knowledge and intent. Now, if he's also a regular customer of the "no-no" site, that might prove the knowledge part.

I would say that could be incriminating somewhat.

Will do, fellow attorney friend :)

This is incredible. I really thought it was primarily silver dollars they were counterfeiting. Onto IHC's, really?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/xiguobu/m.h...047675.l2562


If they were GOOD counterfeiters, they'd get the date right & the composition for the 1859-1864 cents, including the 1864 transition.