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Replies: 35 / Views: 3,262 |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
5964 Posts |
A break it is Profiler. You are the Tie Breaker for the Die Breaker. Thanks everyone.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
5964 Posts |
Maybe some gray areas here, but this is what I'm taking - Details required for Retained Rim required for CudCrack required for Break Edit: Crack is a good sign of break
Edited by CoinMasters 08/24/2015 12:24 am
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Valued Member
United States
144 Posts |
CM, a crack is not required for a break. It's not a rule, just another clue of many in this case.
And for myself, I wouldn't discount anything cwb posted. I learned a lot from him on this thread.
One way to look at errors vs. varieties is that they leave clues, there are gray areas, and many times they're just not as cut and dried as varieties are, which are very well documented with markers by several attributors.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
62064 Posts |
Here is an image of a cracked die and also a Cud: Cud:  
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Valued Member
United States
134 Posts |
I am still struggling with "die chip" vs "interior die break". Maybe some day I will understand the difference.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
5964 Posts |
No, Profiler, I never discount Cwb, he is very knowledgeable, but he said himself that it was a "Shady area". There are many differences of opinion, even among the pros - there just comes a time when a person has to formulate his own beliefs. You are definitely right about errors being trickier than varieties. I'm a work in progress concerning both.
Edited by CoinMasters 08/23/2015 11:14 pm
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
5964 Posts |
Coop, Sheltie and I are struggling together. Nice pics for Cuds. Would you elaborate some on chips vs breaks?
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
62064 Posts |
On the first die I posted, the shows that a crack is on the die that extends to the bottom of the die. On a Cud the area that cracks on the die has broken off the die. Here is a die that has the split die in two pieces:  But when part of the die crack starts crumbling off the die, then we note a chip on the coins struck with it. Here is what an interior break is: (From Mike Diamonds web site) http://www.error-ref.com/?s=interior
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
5964 Posts |
That is definitely a die break.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1781 Posts |
Maybe this will help explain how a Cud forms and what a die chip is. The below image is of a 1oz Silver Round with a so-called "Pre-Cud" die break or what I prefer to call a rim-to-rim die break. It's pointed out by the arrows.  Below is the die from which the above silver round was struck but after the chuck of die "outside" the rim-to-rim die crack broke away.  Below is a bronze medal struck from the same die after the Cud formed & a look at the face of the die.  Here is a 1929-D Standing Liberty quarter with a Die Break. In my opinion the term "Die Break" alone is sufficient to describe what it is but others feel compelled to call these "Interior Die Breaks" or the erroneous term "Interior Cud". The term "Die Chip" simply describes a small die break; maximum size often subjective and/or depending on who is viewing the coin. The below "BIE" on this 1955-S is commonly described as a "die break" between the B and E of LIBERTY but it actually qualifies as being a "die chip." In effect, calling it a die break is correct but calling it a die chip is being more specific. 
Edited by koinpro 08/24/2015 10:42 am
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
5964 Posts |
Excellent stuff, Ken. Very helpful indeed. You cleared it up perfectly for me. Thank you.
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
I don't mind hewing to the definitions at Mike Diamond's site - they support themselves nicely internally and it all makes logical sense. Good luck getting the whole hobby to follow suit. Numismatists aren't exactly monolithic - we've just spent three pages arguing semantics. 
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
5964 Posts |
Yep, it's been a good discussion. I know a lot more than I did when I started this post. Anyone not clear on numismatic terms like chip, break, retained, Cud, interior, rim to rim, and a few others, has only to read this post.
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Valued Member
United States
134 Posts |
Wow, finally my questions have been answered, this has been one of the most educational threads that I have been a part of on CCF. CoinMasters, thank you for starting this thread, and a big thank you to all who have replied.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
5964 Posts |
Yes, SheltieGuy. We will struggle no more, with this stuff anyway. Now on to Mcanniz' signature.
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