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 Replies: 21 / Views: 3,753 |
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Rest in Peace
United States
18456 Posts |
Quote:
The last A of America could not be fit, because the font of the fake is too fat.  , fake |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
997 Posts |
I would not use a coin that is 44 years newer as a comparison piece, there is too much evolution in the design for that. Try to compare it to a contemporary coin, preferably the same year. That said, with 70 years of active circulation and PMD opportunities it is quite possible that this is a real coin that has just really gone through the ringer, literally as well as figuratively. Smash it hard enough and lettering gets pushed. Get it caught in a machine and things get twisted and worn. The lettering could wear down and flatten and letters pushed off their place by a number of reasons. I call this a probable real coin with serious issues. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
724 Posts |
1949 design is basically the same as 1984. No problem to compare them. The coin is not a Dryer Coin. If it were in a roller, the ring would be raised. But this coin has flat ring. This coin has all typical sign of a cast coin, just examining all the pitted surface caused by bubble during the cast procedure. Those pits could not be caused by universal acid treatment, which will blur all design patterns. But several designs such as Monticello and Five cents are still bold. Rule out the acid treatment. There are also a lot of font size and style difference between the real and fake coins. I am pretty certain it is a fake coin. Edited by mdrosophila
04/18/2016 09:11 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
6130 Posts |
Is it magnetic / can you get an accurate weight?
Barring an individual committing a felony out of sheer boredom, the economics of counterfeiting a nickel via casting just don't add up. Henning made dies from genuine nickels and purchased a huge number of blanks and a machine to press them. He barely broke even by the time the feds busted him, after making millions of nickels and circulating tens or hundreds of thousands.
Non-Henning counterfeits do pop up from time to time, often inexplicably. Casting is easy enough, but doesn't make economic sense due to both the raw metal cost, and the time and money to make casting dies, melt the metal, etc. If this is a counterfeit, I would expect it to be done in a metal that is not cupronickel, and is probably only one of a handful made, just for fun.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
997 Posts |
The problem of comparing a 1940 to a 1984 is that the design and relief have been updated many times in the interim. On newer coins the relief is lower and the text and devices are usually sharper. If you compare it with a less-worn coin of the same era you are more likely to have a valid comparison than of the newer versions. While the design itself is mostly unchanged they do make evolutionary alterations all the time. I can pull a pre-80's one out of a pocketful by feel only.
While this coin may very well be a cast fake, the wear and hard living could have occurred on a real coin just the same. The pitting on the obverse could occur from acid or physical contact. The extra material on the reverse however gives me pause. There are obvious contact marks around the edge, it is possible that this could have resulted in the movement of metal to account for the crud above the device but this could also be an artifact of a cast.
Like Finn235 wrote, you are not going to get rich counterfeiting nickels or just about any low-value coin. Henning tried and proved it was pretty much impossible to make money making money. It would be hard to make a real/fake decision based upon photos.
If the owner is interested in investing a couple dollars he could send it in for grading. Let the experts provide their professional opinion. Based on the pictures provided I lean toward a damaged authentic coin, but not by much...
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Pillar of the Community
United States
757 Posts |
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you are not going to get rich counterfeiting nickels or just about any low-value coin. Henning tried and proved it was pretty much impossible to make money making money. You may want to tell the counterfeiters that. Here is a 2004 counterfeit nickel out of my black cabinet. If they can make money now doing it, they could make money doing it 70 years ago.  |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
5828 Posts |
Oh man, looks like I was wrong  Now I can see, looking at these posts, that It does indeed look like I counterfeit. |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1695 Posts |
OP here. Many thanks for the replies. The coin is not magnetic. Unfortunately, I don't have a scale. Here are two more photos using a different set-up:   (I tried to get close-ups on the pluribus but was not successful. I need a better set-up for photos, as these are with an iPad and magnifying glass). |
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Rest in Peace
United States
18456 Posts |
That is one amassing Jefferson . what ever you do DON'T dump it .  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
997 Posts |
With the closer up pics I am leaning more towards a cast fake than I was before. But I still believe that it is unlikely that anyone would ever get rich counterfeiting nickels. The scale needed to make a decent buck out of it is way too large for individuals to invest in. Henning proved it, his was probably the largest scale counterfeiting attempt of contemporary US coinage and he likely spent more than he cleared by the time he got caught. His was a bit different too, that he bought ready-made blanks and created dies rather than using casting techniques. If he had been more careful with his date selection and avoided the 42-45 dates he may never have been caught and we may have a bigger mystery on our hands. More modern fakes like that pictured in davec13's post could be made off-shore. I wouldn't be surprised if foreign companies or even governments try this on occasion, to test the waters or to mix with real coins for the recycling program. Again, in order to make a profit large quantities need to be passed. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
724 Posts |
This is a really ugly pig. I puked.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
6130 Posts |
The most important thing, I think, is to remember that even the US government cannot make a profit on minting nickels, and hasnt been able to since at least the 90s. That would mean that this is either contemporary (1940-1950ish) or a slightly more modern attempt not to defraud, but simply to satisfy the question "Can I do it?"
I am leaning to agree with the others here--this does appear to be a cast counterfeit, not a struck Henning.
If I recall, the blanks that Henning used cost 2.5-3.5 cents each, in the early 50s. His machines and dies were very durable, but expensive leading to a huge initial cost to overcome with 20-40% profit margin per unit produced.
Casting would have a much smaller startup time, but a much higher cost per unit, since the metal must be melted, which is not cheap unless you are using something like zinc.
I love how excited we all get over the prospect of a fake nickel!
Edited by Finn235
04/19/2016 9:58 pm
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Moderator
 United States
188440 Posts |
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The most important thing, I think, is to remember that even the US government cannot make a profit on minting nickels, and hasnt been able to since at least the 90s. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts |
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But I still believe that it is unlikely that anyone would ever get rich counterfeiting nickels. Get rich, No. Get by or make ends meet, Maybe. It doesn't take that much to create crude casting molds and around the end of the depression a nickel was still a significant amount of money. If you were close to being able to make ends meet but not quite making it, supplementing your income with a few dollars worth of nickels a week could make the difference. It would be like making a couple rolls of dollar coins a week today. Only back then nickels were in everyday circulation, and dollar coins aren't today. But if they got rid of the dollar note and the coins became commonplace in circulation, passing them wouldn't be difficult (Ask the British about the counterfeit round pounds in circulation.) |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
530 Posts |
Great conversation piece! keep it.
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Replies: 21 / Views: 3,753 |
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Posted 04/18/2016 07:40 am
