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Ancient Chinese Boshan Knife - Just Bought My Rarest Coin!

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Pillar of the Community
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 Posted 06/19/2016  6:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TypeCoin971793 to your friends list
Thank you all for the positive input!
Pillar of the Community
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 Posted 06/23/2016  01:48 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mdpmedia to your friends list

Quote:
...to 284-279 BC


How far back do ancient Chinese coin knives go?

Plus, on a personal note I was initially hesitant to select my Lydian coin as an avatar since there seems to be a debate on whether or not these Chinese knives should be classified as coins based upon their non-round shape.

What seems to be the general consensus on this issue insofar as the oldest Chinese round coin/knife coin etc.
Pillar of the Community
United States
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 Posted 06/23/2016  12:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TypeCoin971793 to your friends list

Quote:
How far back do ancient Chinese coin knives go?

Plus, on a personal note I was initially hesitant to select my Lydian coin as an avatar since there seems to be a debate on whether or not these Chinese knives should be classified as coins based upon their non-round shape.

What seems to be the general consensus on this issue insofar as the oldest Chinese round coin/knife coin etc.


The estimated start date is 600 BC, but there is no evidence to confirm that. The advantage your Lydian coin has is that is can be proven to be as old as 600 BC. There's no way to do that for Chinese coins.

The Chinese knives and spades were used as money because they were too dull and structurally weak to be used as anything else. However, from what I've read, for a coin to be a coin, it needs to have some mark of an issuing authority. Otherwise, the object is just proto-money. My earliest spade and knife coin both have inscriptions, so, technically, they are both coins.

Spade coins, however, have some stronger evidence for an early start date. There are poems and songs that mention spades that date to 500 BC. For spades to be regarded as a form of money by 500 BC, they must have had an earlier start date for the concept to be readily accepted and diffused into Chinese society.

Various scholars (Schjoth for example) believe(d) that the Qi knives were from ca 900 BC, but that has been debunked on many levels, so your avatar is safe in that respect.
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 Posted 06/23/2016  1:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Collects82 to your friends list
Congratulations on the milestone! What a cool set! (and thanks again for the lead on my 1182 Chines coins!)
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Russian Federation
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 Posted 06/23/2016  1:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add january1may to your friends list
There are other contenders for pre-600 BC coins (the Ionian striated staters and the Phanes series of Ephesus come to mind), and I think some Indian punchmarked pieces are known from 6th century BC, but not 7th (though the dating for them is about as confusing as that for Chinese coins).
And don't even ask me about Olbian dolphins (the dating for these is all over the place, I've seen everything from 7th to 2nd century BC).

TL/DR: as far as anyone can tell, coins (or something that vaguely resembled coins) were invented independently in Asia Minor, India and China, apparently within a century of each other. Asia Minor was probably slightly earlier, but the specific issuer that made the first coins there is still somewhat uncertain (it might well not be Lydia).
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 Posted 06/27/2016  1:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TypeCoin971793 to your friends list
It arrived today. I opened the package, and the knife came out in two pieces. I have contacted the seller as I couldn't think of anything better to do. I bought it as repaired (and I see faint signs of a previous repair), so I might just repair it keep that designation.

On an observational note, the rims are high and shaped just like those on the Qi knives. It is also a lot smaller than I had expected, about 2/3 the size of a normal knife. Perhaps a value 1/2 knife?

I still don't see any charcters on the reverse.

I have no idea how to classify this. Possibly a burial piece (the Ancient Chinese were known to put smaller-size / devalued coinage in the graves), but the casting quality seems too good for this. It is probably not a local variety as the Boshan knives were a local type.

Ancient-Chinese-Boshan-Knife---Just-Bought-My-Rarest-Coin!
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 Posted 06/27/2016  3:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list
Glad that you have it hand, but bummered about the newly reopened fracture. These things must be kinda brittle, no?
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
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 Posted 06/27/2016  4:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TypeCoin971793 to your friends list
The seller has offered to repair it at no cost to me, except postage back to him. I think I will take his offer.

They are brittle, but not so much as to break with the meager amount of force necessary to free it from the tissue. However, looking at the break, I see crystalized bronze, which means this coin is at least contemporary to when it was originally made.

I'm still surprised by how small it is, and I have no explanation for it. Let me get a picture of it next to another knife.

I found a single round character on the reverse, so I am attributing this knife as H-4.46.
Edited by TypeCoin971793
06/27/2016 4:27 pm
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 Posted 06/27/2016  4:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add lrbguy to your friends list
It's a tough call when something you want so badly, which you thought you had, slips away because the vendor did not handle it properly. You will surely go through the 5 stages. If this had been an ebay transaction, even ebay would stand behind you in a claim against the seller - but then you have to give it up. I hope the seller will own up to responsibility for the loss, and grant you a significant price adjustment so you can keep it as a spacefiller.

And I hope a replacement surfaces in the short term.


Quote:
They are brittle, but not so much as to break with the meager amount of force necessary to free it from the tissue.



I don't think that is when it fractured, even if that is when it came apart. I suspect that the knife was not protected from bending while in transit, and that other mailed items cracked it through whatever packing material it was in. You will need to use something to stiffen the package, such as a wooden tongue depresser parallel to the blade, to support it for the back and forth. And mark it FRAGILE.
Edited by lrbguy
06/27/2016 4:40 pm
Pillar of the Community
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 Posted 06/27/2016  4:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TypeCoin971793 to your friends list
See how small this knife is? It weighs 4.4g, while the bigger knife weighs 14.7g. I have never seen a knife coin so small. But it looks like a genuine artefact from over 2000 years ago.

Ancient-Chinese-Boshan-Knife---Just-Bought-My-Rarest-Coin!
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 Posted 06/27/2016  5:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TypeCoin971793 to your friends list

Quote:
I don't think that is when it fractured, even if that is when it came apart. I suspect that the knife was not protected from bending while in transit, and that other mailed items cracked it through whatever packing material it was in. You will need to use something to stiffen the package, such as a wooden tongue depresser parallel to the blade, to support it for the back and forth. And mark it FRAGILE.


Let me elaborate. It was wrapped in tissue paper, and that was taped in between two styrofoam blocks. Then this was placed into a medium-sized box and surrounded with packing bubbles. It was well-packed. When I was unpacking the knife, I cut the tape to minimize the amount of force to extract the knife from the package.
Edited by TypeCoin971793
06/27/2016 5:26 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
6370 Posts
 Posted 06/27/2016  5:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TypeCoin971793 to your friends list

Quote:
It's a tough call when something you want so badly, which you thought you had, slips away because the vendor did not handle it properly. You will surely go through the 5 stages. If this had been an ebay transaction, even ebay would stand behind you in a claim against the seller - but then you have to give it up. I hope the seller will own up to responsibility for the loss, and grant you a significant price adjustment so you can keep it as a spacefiller.


It had already been repaired, so it was already going to be a space filler. I will probably send it back to get it professionally repaired yet again.
Pillar of the Community
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6370 Posts
 Posted 07/22/2016  3:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TypeCoin971793 to your friends list
Just as an update to this thread, I found two more for sale. They are the same size and variety as mine, and they are both broken and repaired. Also, they are priced at three times what I paid for mine!

http://www.numismall.com/acc/284-27...e-money.html

http://www.numismall.com/acc/284-27...d-China.html
Pillar of the Community
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 Posted 07/30/2016  07:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TypeCoin971793 to your friends list
All fixed.

Ancient-Chinese-Boshan-Knife---Just-Bought-My-Rarest-Coin!

Ancient-Chinese-Boshan-Knife---Just-Bought-My-Rarest-Coin!
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200 Posts
 Posted 07/30/2016  09:02 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Baltas to your friends list
Perfect!
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