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Pillar of the Community
United States
3479 Posts |
Ditto on toning it down. I'm here to learn from those with more experience. I'm always happy to hear Bill Jones assessments whether I like them or not  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1499 Posts |
The last time this 1916 Standing Liberty quarter sold in a public auction was in November 2010. Stacks'-Bowers sold it for $195,500. Since then two others in MS-67 have been auctioned. Stacks'- Bowers sold one in August 2012 for $138,000, and Heritage sold another in January 2015 for $146,875. You can go to "Coin Facts" to find the links and look at the pictures of the three coins. After you have compared them, do you think that this is worth almost $50,000 more than the other two? I think not, but one of the factors in that is that the coin market has gone down since 2010, although I've yet to participate in that decline. The coins I buy are still expense, and it seems like I get taken the woodshed every time I bid in an auction. When you reach the point that you can afford to buy a coin that is brings $195,500, you get picky, or at least I do. You look for everything that might not support that price. That's what I'm saying about this piece. It's a wonderful coin, but even "wonderful" has its limits as to how much you are willing to pay, and how much you relay on the opinions of others that run contrary to what you see. This advice applies to $200,000 coins and to $200 coins if their value is dependent upon a superior high grade like MS-67. |
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Bedrock of the Community
 United States
11904 Posts |
This coin has the best eye appeal out of all 67 1916s. Details that are obvious immediately at first glance matter. In August 2010, an ms67 1916 sold on heritage for $54,625. In the same year, within 3 months, there was a $140k spread within grade. For colllectors in the TPG set registry era, the finest coin available translates into awards and recognition. In this country not many strive to come in second. For most of us, $140k is a lot of money. You can't apply the way we think to the behavior of folks for whom $140k is pocket change. These collectors are still knowledgeable, well-advised and sophisticated in many cases. But it is easy for them to make $140k expenditure decisions, when in their day jobs they make decisions affecting hundreds of billions of $s every day. The 1916 isn't especially rare. PCGS and NGC have graded over 600 of them, although some of those are certainly resubmits. But the demand for this coin is gigantic. And demand for the finest at large premium is natural as it always has been. A 25% premium for the finest of a famous key coin does not seem unreasonable. IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.comEdited by numismatic student
04/30/2017 11:09 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1499 Posts |
The coin that sold for $54,625 was an NGC MS-67, Full Head, that had been dipped. It had black stain to the right of Ms. Liberty's that had not dipped out, and a mark on her breast that matters when you are grading such a coin MS-67. Bottom line, that coin did not measure up to the grade. It might have made MS-65 in crossover, but that's it. But if you are buying registry points and not coins, it makes sense for collectors who think that way.
As for collectors "who spend $140,000 like it's pocket change," I've met and done business with a few of them, and they not "snow flacks" who are easily fooled by labels. Stupid people might inherit a lot of money, but they usually have not made it. The ones who know what they are doing can be darn demanding. That's why the NGC coins sell for $54,000 while the PCGS coins sell for $140,000.
Adjusted to add, Heritage has sold or tried to sell that coin at least four times. You don't even have to compare the photos; the serial numbers on the slab are the same. It sold for $97,750 in 2005, $74,750 in 2007 and twice for $54,625 in 2009 and '10. I'd be willing to wager than the last to sales might have been buy-ins although I know Heritage started to report "no sales" at auctions a few years ago.
The Internet is truly a powerful tool. It makes much harder to hide stuff than it was in "the old days."
Edited by billjones
04/30/2017 12:34 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11904 Posts |
This is the NGC MS67 coin that sold for $54,625 in August of 2010. It looks like a pretty nice coin. Some obverse marks, and some specks of dark tone to right of liberty's head, but the strike, especially in the head is razor sharp. Good eye appeal.   IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
683 Posts |
Very nice coin, but I'd have to say that the NGC MS-67 (the one with no toning) looks miles better than the MS-67+ graded by PCGS. In my opinion the the one graded MS-67+ looks like a MS-65+ at best.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11904 Posts |
 That is interesting Optimist-Numismatist. Would you pay more for the coin illustrated on this page than the toned coin in the original post? One puzzling thing about the argument that billjones puts forward is that he argues that advanced collectors, and deep-pocketed collectors that purchase these types of coins look to the attributes of the coin carefully, and are sophisticated and knowledgeable about the coins they choose to purchase. I agree with that. They are also advised by experts. However, when they go to auction and it comes time to put down hard cash to purchase these coins, the toned one in the original post is the one that graded highest, and the one that realized the highest prices at auction. The TPG decides to grade according to grading standards and also according to their financial interests as has been pointed out. But sophisticated investors who put their wallets where their mouths are have, by far, chosen the subject coin of this thread to pay the largest amounts. So are people who bid and won at the auctions for this coin, and repeatedly bid it up to a price higher than for all other 1916s with their eyes wide open, sophisticated buyers or fools being fleeced at every turn who overpay for an overgraded coin which is not the finest for the date? What would be the reason for this? I am skeptical of the theory that fools overpaid for this coin repeatedly at every turn. The TPGs and sophisticated, deep-pocketed investors seem to be consistent in prizing this coin above all other 1916s. I happen to be in agreement with them. IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.comEdited by numismatic student
04/30/2017 4:20 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
683 Posts |
Well I think the way you're looking at it is different then mine. The way I look at it is that in this scenario neither the person who buys the 67 or the 67+ is a fool. I just personally think that the 67+ gets most of its grade from the the "eye appeal" and as someone who doesn't think toning is all that attractive or that toning should have affect on a coins grade, I prefer the blast white one. Also I prefer the blast white one because I find the strike is a lot stronger and it has cleaner fields and devices in my opinion, where as the 67+ has quite a few nasty nicks. Who knows, maybe I'm like that because here in Canada were more used to net grading and have slightly more strict grading standards. And if not for anything else, then maybe I prefer the 67 because the price tag is a lot more lightly struck (if you know what I mean  ) |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11904 Posts |
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I also believe that personal preference has a great deal to do with how things are valued. Markets sort that out, sometimes in weird, unexpected ways.
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
683 Posts |
Well I can say  to that.  |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
94367 Posts |
It only takes two to tango at an auction.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1499 Posts |
Quote:
as someone who doesn't think toning is all that attractive or that toning should have affect on a coins grade, I prefer the blast white one.
You might like the "blast white" coin, but the "blast white" came from a bottle. The coin did not dip well as the dark toning by Ms. Liberty's head indicated. This coin had toning, probably some unattractive black toning, and the dipping did not fix that completely. The coin has not done well in subsequent auctions conducted by the #1 auction house. You can learn from that, or you can ignore it. I have no financial interest in this. I am simply trying to educate the public. If you want to ignore me, fine, but don't complain when you get burned when you don't acknowledge that "blast white" is often not indicative of original surfaces and is out of favor with the current market. I don't condemn every dipped coin, but there are loads of collectors out there who do. I'm trying to show an instance when the dipping did not work, but NGC chose it to ignore it. Edited by billjones
04/30/2017 6:35 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
94367 Posts |
Well said, as always, by probably the most knowledgeable member of this forum.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
683 Posts |
No don't worry Bill, I always try to listen when someone tries to teach me something and I know what you mean about dipping and I often try to avoid dipped coins. What I meant is I'd rather have a coin with light toning around the peripherals and clean fields to a coin that looks like someone spilled soy sauce on it that's covered with hidden nicks and scratches.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
683 Posts |
I'd have to agree with that coinfrog.
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Posted 04/30/2017 08:57 am
