Toning Vs. Details/Recolored

Also, I do detect some subtle toning on TheForce's avatar.

All in fun.

It's really just semantics with how to explain it to people in the sense that people need to just forget about the NT AT thing as that has never been anything but educated guesses and collectors can't even agree on what either actually means. So that leaves acceptable toning and not acceptable. I do like PCGS uses questionable color instead of flat out saying AT even though it was probably done for legal reasons.

AT/NT should have never really been terms widely used, they have never been anything but educated guesses and it's nice to see the market moving away from that style of thinking.

This thread has turned into a wonderful exercise for bringing out some common misconceptions.




In Rick Tomaska's book - "Cameo and Brilliant Proof Coinage of the 1950 to 1970 Era", he discusses milk spots on page 26 & 27.

In a nutshell he mentions that milk spots are most often found on silver proofs from 1958 to 1964. Small spots may be removable but large spots were not removable with any known cleaning agent available at that time.

He also mentions that there was considerable debate on the cause (still is). The opinion of several mint employees that worked there at the time was that the spotting was due to residue from a cleaning solution that was used on the planchets prior to striking. Ivory soap was frequently used, but there were other materials that were experimented with.

Milk spots are also found on 1921 Morgan and subsequent Peace dollars. It's likely there might be more than one cause for the spots, but generally they are caused by reaction of the silver with hydrochloric acid which remains when the planchets are insufficiently rinsed after a hydrochloric acid wash during manufacture. This acid washing step was added to the process in 1921 which partially explains why the 1921 Morgans and Peace dollars [among other silver coins] tone differently than earlier dated Morgans. Once visible to the eye, it is difficult or impossible to remove them without etching the coin's surface. It has been said that they can be seen using a halogen flashlight before they become visible to the eye and at that point they can still be removed with EZest.
Milk spots and toning are very different. As I said earlier, natural toning actually has a protective effect on a coins surfaces, whether it be simply 'thick skinned' or rainbow toned, and happen after leaving the mint. Questionable (artificial) toning on the other hand, can be considered environmental damage.

If you spend enough time with toned coins, you become educated in what is definitively natural. Color progression, elevation chromatics, pull away and textile patterns cannot be duplicated by the doctors. Are there some that have probably never been messed with but are difficult to categorize, like the coin at the top of this thread? Yes. Again, that is why I prefer the phrases NT/Questionable.

As for those that prefer their coins blast white, well I could make the argument that those coins after being dipped have had their surfaces altered, but I won't go there. It's what each of us is attracted to, that to me is what makes this hobby so cool.

No. Let me give you the definition of toning from Coin News. I apologize for all the quotes I am using tonight, but it's late and a little easier on my tired old brain.




Let me also quote from Stewart Blay.....



And finally, from Jay Brahin....



When I first started collecting, I preferred blast white coins. Over the years, my tastes have changed to a preference for thick skinned and original.
But that is just my own taste, we are all unique to what we like.
Collect what appeals to you, as it is your collection!

Thanks for the info on toning. It confirms my assumptions and supports my assertion. Toning (natural or not) is a chemically reactive process which alters the surface of the coin. Milk spotting is also a chemically reactive process which alters the surface of the coin. While the two processes yield different results, they are at their most basic level, both processes which alter the coin after production. In light of this, I believe the TPG's are applying inconsistent standards. Toning, is seen as having a positive or at least a neutral effect when a grade is assigned, but milk spotting has a negative effect on the grade. In my opinion, to be consistent, the TPG's either need to ignore them both during grading and simply make a factual mention of their presence/absence, or cause allow them to both to negatively affect the grade based on the extent of variance from the coins mint state.

I readily acknowledge that toning can produce beautiful desirable coins that may increase their value in the collectors eyes, but that is a subjective assessment, not an objective one. While I can appreciate the sentiment of Jay Brahin, much of what he writes in that quote is subjective, such as in saying that "originality is more important than shiny" to "true collectors". A coin that has been used also has natural aging which attests to its originality. But the issue in grading is how close is the item to the perfect standard of the minted issue. In the comic book field, the color of the paper is factored into the grade, and regardless of age, the tanning of the paper negatively effects the grade even if it is natural and to be expected.

Lastly, to comment on Blay's quote, the original skin of a toned coin is no longer present in it's original state and nothing can be done to recover it. It is forever changed. A dipped coin, removes that thin layer, but it too is forever changed. This means that both are altered from the original mint state (albeit in different and varying ways) so neither can lay claim to being truly being mint state and the preference of one over the other again becomes subjective. However, in the end, none of this matters because as you have properly stated:

Collect what appeals to you, as it is your collection!

To each their own but for those of you who think gorgeous toning is damage. You're nuts!

That's right Chris. You're my kind of guy. Don't be shy, tell them what you think.