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Pillar of the Community
Australia
852 Posts |
2 failures in 135 missions isn't a significantly higher failure rate than the TPGs but significantly LOWER. In some series of coins the top tier failure rates are double digits and with certain types their failure rates approach or exceed 50%. Don't believe? Have a look at the numbers of the No Dot 1920 penny (Australian) that have been slabbed that have curved based lettering (which is a consistent marker for the more common/cheaper Dot Below penny). Currently on ebay (Australia) a PCGS slab at VF35 is such a failure with slab number 34365455 and a single second only is required to see it is CBL. Now the post that quotes "Each order is distributed to graders based on their particular skills and expertise" shows that in the case of the No Dot they have minimal expertise and if 3-4 graders have eyeballed the coin then all of them have minimal expertise in the type and ignored the CBL. I have over 400 slabs for Australian pre decimals and the failure rate exceeds 10% with dozens of coins overgraded, dozens undergraded, one coin had the wrong country on the slab, several are counterfeit coins in genuine slabs and several have the wrong variety on the slab (my favourite as I picked up some expensive coins cheaply in the more common variety slab). Also though we want to buy the coin and not the slab this isn't always possible as not all sellers include details such as cert numbers, many cert numbers have no photo on cert lookup and others have crappy photos as for example many Aussie pre decimals are slabbed at the HK branch of PCGS and they image the coins after they slab them. |
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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
Quote:
2 failures in 135 missions isn't a significantly higher failure rate than the TPGs but significantly LOWER. This is incorrect. PCGS and NGC have EACH graded over 40 million coins, there are not millions of mistakes out there nor are there hundreds of thousands. Even if we say they each have 10k mistakes (which is way to high) thats still only 1 in 4,000 and realistically the number is more like 1 in 40,000. Grades are almost never actual mistakes, not all varieties are automatic and many have to be paid for to get them. The overwhelming majority of what you have stated are input errors not actual expertise errors where the submitter decided to try and take advantage of it by selling them. The fakes are actual errors but they stand behind fixing them |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
852 Posts |
Hi basebal21 It isn't an opinion but a FACT that their failure rate is higher than 2 in 135. Just in my collection I can pull out a number of FAILURES by the TPGs #18348028 is a MS65 1951PL (London) threepence that they misidentified as a Melbourne threepence #90782617 is a MS62 1961 Australian shilling that was mistakenly slabbed as NZ. Even when they reslabbed it they still didn't notice a big flan crack that could easily have either bodybagged it or made it an error coin. #84966152 is a MS64 1953 LARGE denticle florin in a SMALL denticle florin slab. It is also extra desirable as it was struck from Chromed Dies  . The mistake by PCGS cost the dealer over $1000 as he hadn't noticed PCGSs mistake and sold it at a reasonable markup (about 50% markup) to the small denticle price. Almost certainly it is the highest graded large denticle chrome so what is a Top Of The Pops coin worth? #35021221 and #35021222 both MS65 1911 and 1916 shillings and both had their certs pulled only after I notified that they were FAKE. Just 2 of dozens of fake shillings that were pulled last year after I had PCGS and NGC notified of them existing in various collections. I could also add #18760816, #27330407 and #31357723 as 3 more LARGE denticle florins that PCGS mistakenly have as SMALL in their cert lookup and in my registry  . Only by looking closely at old posts on various websites can you find out about the many hundreds of examples of US and world coins that were graded by the TPGs only to have their certs later pulled when it was discovered they were FAKE. In many (most?) cases they only found out when experienced collectors tipped them off as the "professionals" at the TPGs are often not experts in the series they are grading. I know a number of experts in Australian pre decimals and none of us work for the TPGs and each of us would know far more about the coins we specialise in than any of the TPG graders. Frankly when I see their goofs in coins that I'm an/the expert in I have to wonder about their goofs in coins I'm not an expert in. Edited by nealeffendi
05/09/2019 12:58 am
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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
Over 41 million coins graded by PCGS alone.......
This illogical approach that some take is what turns this topic into something silly. Even if we take everyones word you just posted 9 out of over 41 million. Hundreds out of over 41 million is still not even in the same hemisphere as 2 in 135 yet you continue to claim their error rate is much much higher.
To many people try and push their bias against them and give people incorrect information which is a major reason why the internet in general almost certainly have more misinformation about the TPGs than factual information.
It is a FACT that their error rate is much LOWER than 2 in 135, simple math shows us that.
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
852 Posts |
Of course it is illogical and silly to think it is just my word when I posted the actual PCGS cert numbers. I also didn't compare those examples to all 41 million,just the slabs in my possession, though if you really want I can start posting images, cert numbers and reference sources of a couple of examples EVERY DAY for the next few years of their obvious screw ups. Would be embarrassing for PCGS if their dirty linen was aired every day wouldn't it? Perhaps I should make several new posts so each type of screw up can have its own post that others can add their own examples of slabbed counterfeits, wrong description etc to.
And please show me the statistics/factual information to support your "FACT" that simple maths shows us that. I doubt for example that PCGS releases the details of the number of counterfeits in PCGS slabs that they decertify each year or the names of PCGS dealers who have lost financially by having to compensate submitters of coins that were graded and later determined to be fake. I can name a number of such dealers just here in Australia who are each out thousands of dollars from the fake pre decimals last year. Funny how PCGS expects the dealers to spot the raw fakes when they submit them on behalf of clients to then have the PCGS team of "experts" all call the coin genuine and slab it. Then when it is later determined that such coins are fakes the dealer and not PCGS has to compensate the coins owner for PCGSs mistake.
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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
Quote:
though if you really want I can start posting images, cert numbers and reference sources of a couple of examples EVERY DAY for the next few years of their obvious screw ups. Yes I do want you to, every day for the next few years as you said. Multiple examples every day for years that are confirmed still out there. I think 4 years is reasonable for the next few years and at minimum multiple examples should be no less the 4 a day. A couple would be 2 and the overwhelming majority of people say 3 for 3 so 4 a day for many years. I'll call the bluff. Quote:
I doubt for example that PCGS releases the details of the number of counterfeits in PCGS slabs that they decertify each year or the names of PCGS dealers who have lost financially by having to compensate submitters of coins that were graded and later determined to be fake. This tells me all I need to know. That's not how it works but sure. Quote:
I can name a number of such dealers just here in Australia who are each out thousands of dollars from the fake pre decimals last year. I'll call the bluff again. Name them and name specifics and how. Quote:
Funny how PCGS expects the dealers to spot the raw fakes when they submit them on behalf of clients to then have the PCGS team of "experts" all call the coin genuine and slab it. Then when it is later determined that such coins are fakes the dealer and not PCGS has to compensate the coins owner for PCGSs mistake. Nonsense again. The submitter doesn't get payouts for submitting fakes. That's really easy to understand. The dealer doesn't have to compensate anyone for anything unless they sell a fake and by compensate you mean refund. So maybe your friends aren't actually experts huh? This obvious bias is exhausting |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
852 Posts |
The dealers (all very reputable guys) accepted the coins in good faith as genuine from their clients (who had purchased them raw believing them to be genuine and submitted them in good faith). The dealers sent them off and had them graded. A few months later I tipped off several of them (including my main dealer) about these fakes and had PCGS notified (Heritage and NGC were also notified) and the result was several coins were pulled from auction and a number had their certs cancelled. At the grade that the fakes were these cost the dealers thousands in both compensating clients as well as inventory they had that was now unsaleable.
And the submitters to PCGS are the dealers and not the clients that they are submitting for so the dealers get nothing but have to compensate their clients.
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21788 Posts |
There is always the temptation for a TPGrader to grade a tiny bit higher. Indirectly, it may mean a little more business.
One of the reasons:-
If a collector is not happy with a slab grade, there is the temptation to break it out and re submit to a different TPGrader. If it comes back with a higher grade, the collector is happy.
I have seen a few threads here in the CCF, where that has actually happened.
I would think that the most respected grader would also be the most conservative.
Slabbing works best in the U.S., where there is a mature, established market. Has not really caught on in other parts of the World.
Edited by sel_69l
05/11/2019 10:18 am
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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
Quote:
A few months later I tipped off several of them (including my main dealer) about these fakes and had PCGS notified ( Heritage and NGC were also notified) and the result was several coins were pulled from auction and a number had their certs cancelled. At the grade that the fakes were these cost the dealers thousands in both compensating clients as well as inventory they had that was now unsaleable.
And the submitters to PCGS are the dealers and not the clients that they are submitting for so the dealers get nothing but have to compensate their clients. That makes absolutely no sense. The dealers submitted a coin for someone else you said they were faked and they got pulled from auction correct? There's nothing to compensate for. "I regret to inform you that your coin isn't genuine" and return the coin. Unless you are trying to say it cost them in terms of lost revenue there is no reason the dealers should have been out anything in what you described since as you said they were the original submitter. If it wasn't for the grading of today you probably would have never even seen those coins and someone really would be out money with the fake going around the market place like a hot potato. Quote:
I have seen a few threads here in the CCF, where that has actually happened. No you haven't seen a TPG grading it higher for more business as you said. What you saw was someone seeing an undergraded coin and having the skill and knowledge to send it back where it did grade higher into it's proper grade. Quote:
I would think that the most respected grader would also be the most conservative.
Why? Grading lower doesn't mean better. The most respected are the most accurate that can identify the most doctoring that countless collectors would miss. On forums there tends to be a belief that lower grading makes you a better grader but in reality it does not. Inaccurate is inaccurate, if you're way off low calling a XF an F it's just as bad as being high and calling the XF a 62. The most respected is going to be the one with the skill and courage to call the XF a XF and not take the easy way out saying its a VF out of fear they were grading high Quote:
Has not really caught on in other parts of the World.
Actually it has. It isn't to the extent of the US market but there are numerous countries where it has absolutely caught on including the one you live in. |
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21788 Posts |
Actually, it hasn't.
On the Australian market, of those coins that have an asking price of more than $100,
perhaps less than 5% of them are slabbed, and almost all of those that are slabbed, are U.S. coins.
That at least, has been my experience over the last 20 years, to date.
Edited by sel_69l
05/11/2019 10:57 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
Completely inaccurate attempt trying to diminish them but righto Quote:
Perhaps less than 5% of the coins available on the Australian market are slabbed, and almost all of those that are slabbed, are U.S. coins. You're an ancients guy, but if you actually believe that you don't understand what is actually happening Edited by basebal21
05/11/2019 10:58 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts |
Coin grading services are made up of people. And people are people and they all make errors just like you and me.
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Valued Member
United States
327 Posts |
Being kind of new to grading companies would you agree that PCGS is the most reputable and also the most expensive? And then NGC next? Are there any other graders worth considering that will provide an accurate assessment that can be trusted?
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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
Quote:
Being kind of new to grading companies would you agree that PCGS is the most reputable and also the most expensive? And then NGC next? Are there any other graders worth considering that will provide an accurate assessment that can be trusted? As the market shows it PCGS than NGC and than generally a wide gap for ANACS and ICG. The lower tier ones you can kind of argue back and forth over which one is better, I've had different opinions at different times myself but now basically think that if it's worth grading generally than it's worth going to a first tier TPG aka PCGS/NGC. Price does matter too. If it's a 30-40 dollar Morgan it doesn't really make much difference, but the more valuable it is the more of a difference it can make. When it comes to world coins the country can matter too and I would stick to PCGS/NGC for world coins. |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
1333 Posts |
shuttle program is a sad story
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Replies: 28 / Views: 11,465 |
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Posted 05/08/2019 12:54 pm
