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Confederate Lead Seal? Csa

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Pillar of the Community
Italy
1130 Posts
 Posted 02/19/2023  12:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Roma2021 to your friends list
@Keith, that's why I initially thought it was a lead seal for a document. Poorly cast/molded? I also know nothing about CSA ingots.
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United States
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 Posted 02/19/2023  12:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dsking to your friends list
Perhaps the hole was part of the melting process. It does look like two coins melted together. I suppose lead could be another possibility but, I don't believe so. I don't think that it would be double-sided for a seal. I don't have any particular websites to refer you to. I'm a huge Civil War buff and I do know that they did this. I'll see what I can find on-line for you.
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 Posted 02/19/2023  12:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Roma2021 to your friends list
Thanks @dsking, I wasn't doubting you, just trying to find out more information. It is heavy for lead. I'll keep looking online too.

Someone suggested 'ordinance seal', but I imagine the CSA was not as concerned with these formalities.
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 Posted 02/19/2023  12:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dsking to your friends list
Here's an article that's interesting. It doesn't mention the melting of coins together specifically but, it gives you an idea of what they used.

https://cdispatch.com/opinions/2021...war-mystery/

If you're really interested, here are a couple more articles...more than just gold were melted - to include Reales coins.

https://mainstreetcoin.com/how-the-...as-stolen/''

This one is a bit earlier but, still relevant:

https://coins.nd.edu/colcoin/colcoi...s.intro.html

Now you got me going again...
Edited by dsking
02/19/2023 12:56 pm
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 Posted 02/19/2023  12:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Keith67 to your friends list

Quote:
I'm a huge Civil War buff

Me to
I'm 16 miles from Bull Run
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United States
2365 Posts
 Posted 02/19/2023  12:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dsking to your friends list

Quote:
Me to
I'm 16 miles from Bull Run


Way cool Keith12!
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Italy
1130 Posts
 Posted 02/19/2023  1:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Roma2021 to your friends list
@sdking thanks for sending those articles. I think the only gap I am looking to fill in understanding this is why would the CSA melt down recognized and assayed foresign silver and turn it into unrecognized silver ingots? One article says a soldier was paid in an 8 Reale. Also, why can't I find another example of this! haha. CSA notes are a dime a dozen; it doesn't make sense this would show up at a low dollar (euro) coin dealer at a weekly sunday market.

On another note, I am from NJ orginally - so much of the physical Civil War was far from my experiences growing up - but I did visit Richmond a few times and Vicksburg once. . .
Edited by Roma2021
02/19/2023 1:56 pm
Valued Member
Canada
363 Posts
 Posted 02/19/2023  2:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ironhorse to your friends list
Interesting find!

It is a "seal" of sorts.
Lead seals were used for many purposes..a twisted wire or homemade cable would secure cargo then a lead washer would be flattened and impressed at the same time securing the bundle...in this case csa and star. Early uses included fur from trappers being sent overseas...textiles ...and even train boxcars in recent times. If a shipper secured his shipment with a lead seal and it was removed or messed with then the shipment was tampered with in transit.
Some old ones are really ornate


Here is one from my collection.
Confederate-Lead-Seal?-Csa

Old lead patina does resemble old silver patina in ways but it's good ole lead.
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1130 Posts
 Posted 02/19/2023  2:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Roma2021 to your friends list
@ironhorse, that was where I was leaning. I have handled far more seals (vatican and religious 'bulla') than confederate artifacts! This may have also been attached to an official document, but I feel it would be more specific if that were the case. I'm just looking for a comp. on these. Another example(s). Could this be from an export shipment to Europe from the CSA?
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4420 Posts
 Posted 02/19/2023  2:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ExoGuy to your friends list
I seriously doubt that this item is silver. I'm thinking a lead/pot metal substance. I'd take it to a coin or jewelry dealer who has an XRF analyzer gun to get a breakdown of the metal(s).

Given its size, I suspect it may have been attached to a small pouch.

The single star suggests that it might have emanated from Texas, perhaps?

I'm not surprised to learn wherein it was found. A few years ago, a dealer-friend of mine, who frequently buys bulk lots of world coins and tokens, found a decent looking, G-VG 1794 Half Cent therein. I bought it .... He told me he'd previously found a VF copper-nickel Three Cent piece in a bag he bought.
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Italy
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 Posted 02/19/2023  2:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Roma2021 to your friends list
Hi Exoguy....I live in Rome and I can confirm that some strange stuff shows up here, but usually within a genre... ie Morgans, halves, etc. I rarely find anything u.s. civil war related... All of my threads on this forum contain coins I've found here. My absolute best find was a 1800 over date 99 large cent. I think it was my first or second post ...

Confederate-Lead-Seal?-Csa

Edited by Roma2021
02/19/2023 2:57 pm
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United States
2365 Posts
 Posted 02/19/2023  2:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dsking to your friends list

Quote:
It is a "seal" of sorts.


I was just thinking that, on the side with the star, it appears to have a faint design and even "rays" on the edge. Plus there appears to be a rim edge in places. The Confederates did steal a lot of Reales and others to make their own "currency". They got desperate at the end of the war to survive. I guess it would depend what the "metal" is.

That's interesting too. Good luck in your search.
Edited by dsking
02/19/2023 3:09 pm
Pillar of the Community
Italy
1130 Posts
 Posted 02/19/2023  3:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Roma2021 to your friends list
Under a better loupe . . .

There is some type of marking on the star side; it does look like crudely melted metal cast in a poor mold.

There is also remnants of a string that ran through it.

Thanks @dsking, I appreciate your interest. I'll post to the forum if I find anything.
Edited by Roma2021
02/19/2023 3:14 pm
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16850 Posts
 Posted 02/19/2023  7:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list
It is certainly a lead seal. The holes on opposite sides of the rim are a clear indication of this. And you can see bits of the "string" still stuck inside the edge of the seal.

However, I'm not entirely sure that "CSA" necessarily has anything to do with the Confederate States. I suspect it's just a coincidence, and it's just somebody's initials.

Lead seals were generally more informative of the actual owners of the goods being shipped; it's my understanding that while the Confederate Government itself did sometimes take direct ownership of goods running the Union blockade, they always did so under assumed names and foreign shell companies, to try to avoid seizure - so a lead seal proudly shouting "Made in the CSA" to all the world would not have been onboard.

Finally, of course... I'd have thought the Confederates needed all the lead they could get their hands on, for turning into ammunition. Putting chunks of lead onto bales of cotton or tobacco for exporting to Rome, would have been exporting somebody's bullets they could have been using to shoot at Yankees. The blockade-runners that were shipping the cotton outbound would, on the homeward leg, be bringing back war material vital to the war effort - things such as lead ingots.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
Pillar of the Community
Italy
1130 Posts
 Posted 02/20/2023  06:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Roma2021 to your friends list
@sap... I thought of that too. Besides the CSA, the star feels decidedly american... I'll continue looking... Thanks for your reply.
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