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Replies: 35 / Views: 1,113 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2752 Posts |
Neither you nor PCGS have provided any information regarding beam strength or depth of penetration. Considering that PCGS has slabbed many cents struck on foreign copper-plated zinc planchets as "copper", I have no confidence in their determinations.
Error coin writer and researcher.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
594 Posts |
But why does a 99% copper planchet weigh 10% less (2.87g vs 3.11g) than a 95% copper planchet of the same size?
Since copper is denser than zinc, shouldn't the planchet with more copper weigh more than the planchet with less, assuming all other dimensions are equal?
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New Member
 United States
17 Posts |
The majority of pennies weigh \(3\text{\ g}\)-\(3.1\text{\ g}\), but there are also numerous pennies that weigh \(3.2\text{\ g}\) or even \(3.3\text{\ g}\). Conversely, some weigh between \(2.8\text{\ g}\) and \(2.9\text{\ g}\), which is still within the range of what is considered acceptable. There are also tests you can conduct to determine the density of an object made of a particular material. Nonetheless, the most crucial test that determined the outcome was X-ray Fluorescence (XRF) testing. There is no way to manipulate that test; if there were, people would be exploiting it to pass coins through grading companies. Furthermore, Jon Sullivan—a very knowledgeable and professional individual—certified the coin himself and provided his recommendation.
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Forum Dad
 United States
24243 Posts |
What beam strength XRF does PCGS use?
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New Member
 United States
17 Posts |
It doesn't specifically say what "beam strength" is being utilized but I think it's just a standard calibration for the machine in general the adds reassurance and effectiveness.
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Forum Dad
 United States
24243 Posts |
So you have no idea the depth it analyzes, as it's directly related. You should listen to Mike Diamond.
We do not do AI here, it's wrong as often as it's right.
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New Member
 United States
17 Posts |
The fact that matter is, these machines used to conduct metallurgic testing are worth their weight in gold, figuratively and literally. Lots of precious metal dealers, whether it be jewelry or simply precious metal exchanges, utilize and rely upon these machines, and yes, they are non-intrusive. In some situations that's necessary, when you have a high-end gold coin that's worth hundreds, if not millions, of dollars. This is what they turn to. And I'm sure people try their best to pass off fake coins coated in gold.
And yes, there are some videos where people are showing that these machines are 100% accurate, but it's just usually a video promoting another one of these machines. I just think that there was maybe a calibration issue or something was being done incorrectly. I don't think there is a beam strength, but I don't know. I don't own one of these machines. I don't really know anything about them other than what information is available. But I do know that multiple people utilize these machines to conduct very serious business with very serious money.
In fact, the matter is, I found a penny that exchanged multiple hands, had multiple tests completed by professionals who do this every single day, who see hundreds, if not thousands, of fake coins. And the fact the matter is, I don't know what it's worth, but the fact of the matter is, this is an error coin. An individual who is capable of producing such an elaborate fake wouldn't be wasting their time and effort on a single cent, but rather items of gold, probably not even silver, because it's gold, an extreme amount of value as is. Imagine if you could produce fake gold coins that could pass these elemental tests as well as the professionals who know even the smallest indifference of the dies to produce coins in general. One condition, 1909-S VDB MS condition, as well as the 1916-D, the 1914-D. One person, take Henning nickels for instance. I found two of those in one month. I gave my brother a 1944 and I sold a 1939. I haven't found another one since, but fact the matter is...
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Forum Dad
 United States
24243 Posts |
Quote: I don't think there is a beam strength, but I don't know. Wow. All I'm saying, and as mentioned by a World Leader in the error coin field above, grading services have been wrong calling coins copper many times before.
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New Member
 United States
17 Posts |
Oh yeah, there's many, many people—thousands of people—who say that they have this or they have that, 'I have a gold penny,' yada yada yada. But there was no test performed, and we're not just talking about a ping test. We're talking about a test that is designed for applications that are extremely important. You can't fake it; you can't manipulate it in any way, shape or form. They are using literal radiation for elemental analysis, and if it could be manipulated or cheated in such a way, then the whole numismatic community would have more skepticism for a numerical grade that changes with every submission rather than a precise radiation test."
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Forum Dad
 United States
24243 Posts |
We're talking about coins in slabs, labeled copper, and wrong. Quote: You can't fake it; you can't manipulate it in any way, shape or form. That's not exactly true. If you have a thick gold plating on a copper coin (or vice-versa), and a low-strength beam XRF machine, the reading can read as gold when it's plated. I've seen it, in person, at coin show demonstrations. I've seen two different XRFs get completely different readings because the beams are different. Why do you think people keep mentioning beams?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
6948 Posts |
Quote: What beam strength XRF does PCGS use? I doubt that makes much difference. You can blast more X-rays at a surface, effectively increasing amplitude, but you would need higher energy (meaning higher frequency) X-rays to penetrate deeper. The stuff I've read online about XRF technology suggests that it reaches a few hundred microns (or a few 0.1mm increments) into a dense metal surface like gold, silver, copper, lead. A U.S. cent is about 1.5mm thick. Could it reach the interior? On paper, maybe. I wouldn't bet $10000+ of my own money on that assumption. I would want to see a battery of tests on a control group, first, with multiple variations. However—and it's a big however—most measurement techniques that rely on EM reflection are probably heavily biased towards the surface if the metal structure is non-uniform. I think it's a bit concerning that the planchet doesn't read as the proper pre-1982 copper alloy composition, because a vintage planchet would be a uniform metal alloy from the surface straight through the core. Having been involved in testing semiconductors, I would have imagined that they would have run a series of tests on that coin. Specific gravity is the first one that comes to mind, followed by mechanical parameters like diameter and thickness, and then conductivity and electrical tests.
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New Member
 United States
17 Posts |
The coin was tested several times by different organizations: once by myself, PCGS, NGC, back to PCGS. I have the original testing results from PCGS; I have the original testing results from NGC, and again by PCGS. It's just printed on the label of the holder. It's a pretty straightforward test, not so simple of a process, but after being done multiple times, if there was any sort of discrepancy or miscalibration, then it would have become obvious through the multiple tests. And aside from that, when I originally sent the coin to PCGS the first time, it was labeled Mint-State 64 red, and something happened at NGC that caused oxidation and turned it red-brown, which then PCGS labeled it red-brown. They probably added some solution to the surface that would give them some indicators; I don't know, but that is a big shift in color, and I never took it out of the holder after receiving it back from PCGS initially after I goofed on the submission forms, which was a pain, let me tell you. I thought I was updating the submission form rather than sending it in as a whole new submission, lol. But at least it's straight graded initially, which was good news. If there was some sort of discrepancy with the design that would have made it apparent that the coin was manufactured by an individual, that would have been a big letdown, you know? I can't believe there is even a discussion about what this coin is after it went through the tests that it has. #128557;
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2752 Posts |
A specific gravity test would arguably be more useful in these circumstances as zinc has a significantly lower density than copper. Even a heavy layer of copper plating wouldn't obscure this.
Error coin writer and researcher.
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New Member
 United States
17 Posts |
I wouldn't be against taking that bet, but I completely understand. Honestly, I do. What's been happening in the coin community ever since I realized there was one has opened my eyes to all of the fraud. There is an enormous amount of fraud, deception in this world, let alone strictly in the numismatic community. And honestly, if it wasn't for the applicable tests that I would, I would be looked at like every other individual who has made such claims.
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New Member
 United States
17 Posts |
Yeah, a density test could be possible, but not as accurate as x-ray fluorescence, not by any stretch. Tungsten is used in the manufacture of counterfeit gold coins, and as far as density goes, from what I understand, it's identical if not almost identical.
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Replies: 35 / Views: 1,113 |
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