Brazilian 960 Reis: Struck Over A Colonial 8 Reales

Archraz - It is actually simpler than you think. If you look at the Globe side of the coin (which should be shown with the legend STAB SUBQ at the top) all you have to do is check the ends of the Portuguese Cross. Rio uses Trapezoids and Bahia uses Triangles. Some of the really odd or butchered shapes are counterfeits.

There is a third rare mint as well in 1810 - M (the Minas mint house) which operated 2 years only (1810 and 1816). They also used Trapezoids but chances of having an M mint are very slim.

On later dates you should also be able to tell by looking at the denomination. Bahia used a plain font for the 960 and Rio used a font with balls at the ends of the 9 and 6. In 1810 both were plain.

Axis of strike is not mentioned in the texts and how many were rotated is unknown to me. So orientation is not as far as I know a reliable method of determining the mint.

And for the record most of the SSP coins use the B mintmark. In 1814 the SSP's did use an R but the dies look like B types. The SSP is also responsible for the B/R over mint mark variety.

When dealing with the host varieties you really need to read Dave Levy's book. The 8R coins are most common by far but his book shows many other coins that were re-stamped. The US dollars are great but there is also a 2 Rupee from Madras,India, several Maria Theresa Thalers and coins from England, France, Italy, Netherlands and even some of the rare Spanish emergency issues. My favorites are of course the counterfeit hosts and those that were countermarked for use in the New World. So you should always check for undertypes. They can make a semi-common coin into a significant rarity.

jfransch - The identification of counterfeit hosts can be done using:
1. Traces of the underlying counterfeit coin in very rare cases.
2. Color (the normal method) at times the restrike will cause rapid concentrated wear on a small point of the host exposing a core of off metal.
3. Exposure of the fraud via test cuts or holes made many years ago.
4. Specific Gravity of the coin.

Unfortunately nearly every recoined counterfeit is going to be the CORRECT weight. It is my opinion that Brazilian officials used weight as their primary method of evaluation. An underweight or overweight counterfeit that was restruck as a 960R is not known to me. Dave Levy may know of some, but I do not.

You are correct in stating that the edges were redone by Brazil when they were re-coined. However, on some cases there is some of the original edge remaining. I have not found any instances where the edge alone could prove a restruck coin was a counterfeit.

Most of the restrikes on counterfeit hosts were previously identified and have been test cut. But when looking through a dealer's inventory I am always hunting for off metal or odd colors. Usually the off metal is exposed by wear, but in some cases it is surface discolorations seen on counterfeits that show even when the coin is re-stamped. The counterfeits made with white copper alloys in the early 1800s were plagued with streaks in the metal itself. Often showing up as dark streaks or swirls these imprefections in the alloy are often the only clue to a host being a fake until you check the SG.

I run SGs on all suspects when I get home. I do have a collection of real coins - residual coins that ended up being real when I got them home.

Exposing this particular fraud is far more of an ART learned over time than a strict science where you follow a check list for clues.

One other question to consider.

IS an officially re-issued 960R to be classified as a counterfeit if it was struck with real dies? Some of my friends consider them to be accidental off metal strikes and treat the coins as real - as if an incorrect planchet fell in a coining bin. Does anyone think I am being too much of a purist here or does anyone else consider a Contemporary Counterfeit being recoined more of a RARE host, falling in the category of a US Bust dollar?

The best place to see the overstrikes and to learn the true scarcity of the host coins is the Levy book. It was co-edited by a friend Dave Sunderland. His email is dsunderl@hotmail.com. He may have some copies left or know if Dave Levy has any left. Dave Levy is from Brazil and English is not his first language.

Make sure you tell him you know me. I don't think he would object to me plugging his book. It was published in 2002 in Brazil.

swamperbob- thanks for the email address! I'll try to shoot him a pm in the near future.

It is a shame that it only had a print run of 500. You would think that there would have been more demand for it.

I've seen coins made into bowls before, both genuine coins and imitation coins made specifically for inserting. It seems to be a Latin American thing; I haven't seen it too often from Europe or Asia.

I don't know what kind of damage might have been done to the coin during the process of attaching the bowl, but it's unlikely to be removable without some damage. I suspect it wouldn't be worthwhile trying.

In any case, the shield visible through the "cross side" of the coin is clearly Spanish-American, and from what I can tell, of Spanish king Charles IV (issued between 1790 and 1808). Unfortunately, the date appears to be obscured, from those pics anyway (which are quite good) but I'm pretty sure I can see the Mexico City mintmark.

The date should be somewhere near or under the BRASD on the shield side; the mintmark, an "M" with a small "O" above it, is just above the "S" of SIGN. The mintmaster's initials, two letters like "F.M.", would be underneath the word "SIGN".

thank you guys so much for your input! the story of these coins is so intriguing!

the sheild side is so filthy :/ I can't make out any markings near the BRAS D except for maybe a small mark under the S. on the other side I see what could be an 8 under the I in SIGN, perhaps a II or an H under the N, and something to the left of the S but I cant make out what it is.

Here are a couple of my favorites. First is an 1818R struck over an 1816LmJp Spanish Colonial 8 reale from Lima. The full date is showing as well as the most of the obverse legend. On the reverse, the assayer JP identifies the host coin as Lima mintage.
The second is an 1819R struck over an 1812 Spanish colonial 8. The full host coin date is at the top of the image between 12 and 1 o'clock.

http://www.coincommunity.com/forum/...200981_1.jpg

http://www.coincommunity.com/forum/...200981_2.jpg

http://www.coincommunity.com/forum/...200981_3.jpg

http://www.coincommunity.com/forum/...200981_4.jpg

Since we were talking about 960s and their host coins, I thought I would point out that the cover coin from the Levy book we have been discussing is going up for auction on 9/8/09 in a Goldberg auction. It's the most incredible overstrike I have ever personally held in my amazed little hand. The host coin is a 1799/8 US bust dollar and you can make out large parts of the host coin including the full date. I am posting scans of the cover for those interested in this amazing piece of history

http://www.coincommunity.com/forum/...Front001.jpg

http://www.coincommunity.com/forum/...rBack002.jpg