PCGS Vs NGC Grading Coins

ANACS shot themselves in the foot by trying to combine a corporate move with the rollout of a new slab, but foot wounds heal. I expect good things in the future from ANACS.

Gusp, you hit the grading problems on the head. No matter how good we personally get as graders for a particular series (nobody can be good in all of them), we're always gonna be playing a roll of the dice with the top grading services and trying to second-guess them. While we might follow the ANA and Photograde standards, the TPGs are not obligated to use the same benchmarks. Indeed, when they change their standards as did PCGS over the past two years on Morgans, sometimes I wonder why I even bother. However, the TPGs DID make it possible to buy and sell coins sight unseen except by photograph, something which was not possible 20 years ago. As we've learned in this forum, in many (perhaps even most?) situations, it is very difficult to accurately grade a coin from an image. Best we can do most times is come within one or two grades from whatever the TPG gave (or might give) the coin. However flawed the system might be, it's what we have to live with until someone comes up with a better technology (holograms?). And, again with the top TPGs, at least we get a guarantee that a coin is within the ballpark of whatever the TPG graded it. These days, I am very reluctant to bid on a key, semi-key, or a high grade "common" coin from an image unless it's in a top TPG slab since I know the image presented of a raw coin is either going to exacerbate marks or is going to hide them. In any instance, purchase of any coin from an image is a gamble, albeit mitigated to one degree or another by its placement in an encapsulation by one of the top TPGs.

Fred

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Originally posted by Metalman

Im reading this thread with great interest,, because of this ,, all of you guys play the TPG game, and then wonder about the grade of your coins ? whats up with that ?

seems to me that I can have the same peace of mind with my collection without the added $ for plastic and an unreliable grading companies opinion.

Simple fact MS-65 is MS-65 in an airtite !!

If you choose to sell for less just because the plastic does not say PCGS or NGC and if you choose to pay more for the same reasons then without perhaps realising it you become part of the problem.

Rick

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Hi Rick! I was wondering when you'd come in.

The way I see it is the situation is a Catch-22. On buying a raw coin, we can take somebody's word for it that it's a particular grade (and usually be disappointed) and pay a lot less or we can shop only for top TPG-graded coins and pay a lot more. If we're selling a coin, same situation. We can hope the buyers take our word that the coin is a particular grade, which they won't, so they'll pay less than if it was in a top TPG slab. Either way, the big winners are the TPGs.

However, from your point of view, if I know my raw coin is an MS-65 (or whatever) and I have no intention to sell it, why bother to have it slabbed? The TPGs really come into play only when a coin is to be bought or sold. Preservation-wise, all a coin needs is a sturdy holder and those can be had for a couple bucks. (I suppose the vanity of having a high graded or special coin so designated by a top TPG would be nice to show around the club, but that's a different matter.)

Fred

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Originally posted by CoinHog

Great Posts, to the member that stated make sure you send in the slabbed coin, what I mean if I crossover a coin to another coin grader should I send in the cracked out plastic with previous grade to company which it name appears on the slab? Or does that other grading company notify that company. This makes real sense, I have cracked out many coins and I wondered if the pop report on the amount of say ms 64 from NGC are the real amount? This seems that it is not if people crack and resubmit, crack and resubmit. Ty Coin Hog, I learn something new everyday.

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Ty, if you crack out a coin, then send in the broken slab with the coin as a submission to either the same grading company or as a crossover to another, it defeats the purpose of cracking the coin out. The way the game is played is that a coin is cracked out to be submitted as a raw ungraded coin without the grading company knowing that it had previously been slabbed. And it is definitely a game of chance: after spending $15 to $50 for the original slab, we then spend another $15 to $50 on the chance we'll catch the grading company on a good hair day to get a higher grade. Repeat if necessary until we finally get that higher grade or go broke in submission fees.

Now, what to do with the broken slabs? I think most people who play the game only occasionally just throw them away, but I read awhile back about a dealer who sent several hundred or thousand broken slabs to one of the grading companies so they could adjust their population reports. On a true crossover where one TPG cracks out a second TPG's slab, I don't know if it notifies the other or not; I presume it does. However, repeated submissions of low numbers, high grade cracked out coins can certainly have an impact on a TPG's population report. For instance, if I have a PCGS-slabbed MS-64 1891-CC Morgan in Prooflike condition (2004 popn of 11 in MS-64 Prooflike, only one in -65) which I think can upgrade to MS-65 Prooflike, I'll keep resubmitting it, say ten times until it either makes MS-65 or I quit trying. The population just went up to 21 based on the ten submissions of the same coin. If by chance it is finally awarded MS-65, the perceived relative rarity in the PCGS popn report of this now MS-65 just went up in comparison to the numbers of MS-64 Prooflikes, even though the -65 doubled in population to two. The only way this is gonna change back to reality is if I send in all the broken slabs for population adjustment.

I suspect this scenario has happened with considerable frequency which is why we'll see a lot of coins at a particular grade (say MS-64) and very few at -65 in a particular series.

Fred

Another view and opinion on slabs. I personally do not like slabs for a number of reason, the biggest being you can't really take that coin in hand and really give it the loving look that a favorite coin provides. You can't really roll it around and get good close-up views of the rims, the raw coin and being able to reflect the light as you roll it around and give it a thorough examination. I have been back into collecting coins for 3 months now, after 20 years of being out of the loop, but my love for coins has never left me. As of this date, I will only collect slabbed coins and mint commemoratives in pristine condition. I have started the process of changing over to this new philosophy due to the fact I do not want my descendants to have to dispose of something they know nothing about which would essentially wipe out my forty years of coin collecting efforts. When I move on I want to leave something that will be able to be valued rather easily and the vultures will have a hard time scamming my heirs. I will keep certain coins until I leave this earth, in order to see them, touch them, cherish them and remember the stories that goes to each coin. Even though I don't like slabs, they do have a certain value for a particular persons needs. I have tried for years to get my children interested in coins but to no avail. Therefore, as I am in the twilight of my life, the slab is the way to go for me. I will continue to get MS coins for my personal edification and joy. I hope this long tirade makes some sense to some of my forum counterparts. Best wishes to all.
Berry

"I'm also not certain what you gauge as the "twilight" of life. I'm almost 61 and feel like I've only just begun to understand life although I have already made provisions for the inevitable which could happen tomorrow or 30+ years down the road."

Fred

Well Fred, with respect to age you would have to call me Sir, but old Dan is "ancient" and I would have to call him Sir. I am in that corridor of life right now that the inevitable may happen at any time according to the Actuaries. I still keep on moving though and enjoy my life at this point in time. Thankfully I am in better condition than I thought I would be, so the good life goes on.
Berry

Rick states:

"and although I respect both of those opinions ,, the problem exists IE No absolutes in the grading skills of the TPG's, No consistency, No peace of mind other than resale,, and this has been and still is the marketing system that the TPG's vie for ,, until that focus changes to consistently grading coins, reliable ,service oriented ,Business, then I still contend that to play the TPG game makes you part of the problem rather than the solution.

Rick"

Rick, a solution to this problem could be found, but the only problem would be the cost to implement the system and participation from all levels of the coin collecting realm. We know this will never happen, so therefore the slabs are an accommodation for some, a burden to bear for others and some really don't care. I will accept the accommodation for now and wait for a better system to come along.
I certainly admire your position and also Morgan Fred's stance. We are all correct in our opinions,just thankful a civilized discussion can be held to exchange ideas on this dilemma.

Berry

Rick, you hit the nail on the head. The top TPGs, especially PCGS not only control the market, but are manipulating it. Any time a top executive sits there and lies to me that a coin has been "harshly cleaned" when a die crack which would have been removed by harsh cleaning is so evident under magnification is the time to leave.

However, I'm not certain that education in grading is practical with so many new collectors coming into the field. It takes a lot of practice to learn to grade coins and even with a lot of experience, we're still only second guessing the TPGs. At the moment, we are stuck with the grading services. If there was some means to force them into honest grading instead of market grading and manipulation, then I would be all for it. The only solution I see might be some sort of class action lawsuit. The only long-term solution would be machine grading (computers and scanners) which hasn't really been attempted as yet. Of course, this would be opposed by the TPGs unless they themselves developed and adopted it.