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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
TwoKopeiki - For specific gravity you need a scale that can weigh accurately to a 1/10th of a gram minimum (when dealing with coins the size of an 8R). You weigh the coin in air and in water. You divide the weight in air by the difference between the two weights. Depending on what you use to support the coin - you may need to get the differential of the string or wire you use. Do not use anything that absorbs water!
Also make sure there is no grease on the coin - also boil the water first and cool it to room temperature then add a couple drops of dish detergent to break the surface tension.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
TwoKopeiki - I have not heard of the CMS and SCM countermarks on a 1 Reale. It may have happened but given the relative simplicity of that stamp I would be very suspicious about a forgery. It would be a great way to take a $1 junk box item and boost the value manyfold.
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Pillar of the Community
 Czech Republic
803 Posts |
Thanks again, swamperbob. It appears that I am not equipped to perform the SG test yet.  I understand your concerns about the counter-marked coin, it's not exactly the most intricate design. The weight is really off, as well (2.35is grams), although I would expect it to be much less due to the planchet being so thin (looks ...filed?... until no trace of design remained on the host coin). I am charging the camera and will take a couple of pictures shortly. ~Roman |
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Pillar of the Community
Czech Republic
803 Posts |
Here are a couple of shots:   ~Roman |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
Roman - I think you may really have something there.  It would appear to be the remains of a One Real (70% - wear) and not a US 10 cent piece. I presume there is nothing left of the edge detail and that the diameter is consistant with a 1R. The punch absolutely looks real - it matches my photographs of a real punch in every single respect that I could find. The shapes if the letters - the out of allignment S's for example and the elements of the eagle stamp all appear correct. I located at least a dozen anomalies on the stamp that match your coin exactly. So if the puncheon was forged it has passed expert examination. You might consider contacting some of the big names in Mexican coins to see if you can get an authentication in person. It might be worth submitting to the USMexNA (US Mexican Numismatic Association) this could be a real find. An article in their journal with backup by their editorial staff could get this coin recognized as UNIQUE. |
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Pillar of the Community
Czech Republic
803 Posts |
Oh, wow... That sounds like it could be a very nice find, indeed!
I don't know any of the big names in Mexican coins, or how to go about submitting to the USMexNA. I will try to gather this information tonight, once I return from work.
Thank you, yet again, swamperbob. If you would like to examine this coin in-hand, shoot me your address and I will ship it to you.
~Roman
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Pillar of the Community
Czech Republic
803 Posts |
I found information on USMexNA here - http://www.gmmnut.com/usmexna.html -and have e-mailed Don Bailey and Joe Flores about the steps I would have to take to have this coin submitted to them. ~Roman |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
TwoKopeiki - Don Bailey and Joe Flores are the two best I can think of. Richard Ponterio would be a good third, but he is more of a commercial dealer. You are on the right track for sure.
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Pillar of the Community
Czech Republic
803 Posts |
Well, I have tried Mr. Bailey twice (once on each of his provided e-mails) and Joe Flores once - without any replies. It appears that USMexNA hasn't been active in a few years, so I contacted Mr. Bailey through his Mexican Coins site.
It looks like my excitement about this coin is not contageous :(
~Roman
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
TwoKopeiki - USMexNA is still active. They produce a newsletter that I receive regularly with articles on coins just such as yours. I joined the association a few years back and they have had a few interesting articles.
It may just be that they are very busy or do not think the punch is real. But if it is not real I would still expect an answer.
I would suggest that you contact Richard Long to see if he is familiar with the type.
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Pillar of the Community
Czech Republic
803 Posts |
A small update on my search. I could not locate an e-mail address for Richard Long and ended-up calling him. He was incredibly friendly and told me that he would like to help, but his knowledge about this specific coinage was limited. He suggested contacting Don Canaparo in Hawaii, "who is writing a book on similar subject", and provided me with his phone number...
To be continued ...
~Roman
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Pillar of the Community
Czech Republic
803 Posts |
Well, I think I am getting ready to put this saga to rest. Here's an e-mail I received from Mr.Canaparo (whos name, along with Richard Longs' are in the "Acknowledgements" part of "Hook Neck" - how awesome is that?!) : quote:
hello, looked at the photo. I was wondering what you needed to know about this. I'm familiar with the c/s's on 1 & 2 reales. this eagle c/s of course also appears on 8 reales and actually is S.C.M.J. in full. I'm assuming your example 's c/s's are struck and therefore genuine. the most common accompanying c/s for the eagle of this type is the ornate M.d.S. I personally doubt the C.M.S. c/s from the same period. the eagle I believe is a war of independence era c/s as is the M.d.S., the C.M.S. appears more modern, a hacienda or municipal in the same region and later period perhaps? as always it's hard to say conclusively about that. I hope this helps in some way. sincerely-don
From his response, the only thing I can draw, somewhat conclusively, is that the punch is real. I had no idea that C.M.S. was applied separately (and possibly at a later time). I have asked Mr. Canaparo for recommendation on sources of information for War of Independence coinage, but have not had a response yet. It's a neat, simple coin with a great history, and will always remain an interesting part of my collection. Thank you again, Swamperbob, for pointing me in the right direction. I have read "Hook Neck" (fantastic book on profile eagle coinage of 1823-1825) and ordered Compendio De Las Piezas De Ocho Reales (I managed to talk the seller into accepting $300 for both volumes). ~Roman |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
Roman - that is great news. The composite nature of the two stamps from different time periods make it a triple coin (three uses). I'm also glad you like Hookneck's - Dave O'Harrow is a very interesting fellow. Did you also get the Supplement with the book? I made a contribution to the Supplement a Contemporary Counterfeit Hookneck variety dated 1824 Mo. It is one of my prize counterfeits that I got on ebay for under $40. At last count there are fewer than 20 known examples of 9 different die varieties of Contemporary Counterfeits of the Hookneck 8R in existence. The variety I own is apparently Unique. When you get the Compendium let me know what you think. My copy has decent photographs but I have heard from other owners that some copies had photos that were rather light and difficult to see.
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Pillar of the Community
Czech Republic
803 Posts |
I should be getting it first week of November, since they will only be able to ship it Oct30th. Once I have it, i'll let you know about the quality of photographs. Also, I did not get the supplement with "Hooknecks" - it has been now added to the list of books to acquire.
It sounds like you own a fantastic coin, swamperbob. Does the supplement contain counterfeit die varieties? That would be very useful and I was surprised to see so little about counterfeits in the book itself (either contemporary, or modern).
~Roman
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
Roman - the supplement actually lists all but one of the known varieties of the contemporary counterfeit Hookneck 8Rs - all are dated 1824 Mo. There are not that many different varieties and all of them are Rare to Unique. All other forgeries are Modern. It would be a real coup to uncover a contemporary forgery of any other mint or denomination, but I have been hunting for quite a few years and have found only ONE. There are far more modern counterfeits than contemporary ones - the 1824 Do is on ebay all the time. It dates from the 1960s. "Hooknecks" only shows the most common modern ones. There are two counterfeit varieties listed in Riddell that are still unknown to exist today in any collection - so there are some exceptionally rare items to be discovered. The exemplars which were used to make Riddell's book were ALL destroyed in the 1840s - so there is no way to know if they have all survived.
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Posted 10/04/2006 8:20 pm
