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1964 Lincoln Cent DDR?

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First Page  Showing last 15 replies.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7629 Posts
 Posted 03/30/2011  11:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coppercoins to your friends list
Umm, yeah...

This is without a shadow of a doubt a doubled die.

MD...really?

Nice find!
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1166 Posts
 Posted 03/30/2011  11:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ikandiggit to your friends list
Notching on the corners gives it away. Nice find!
Valued Member
United States
260 Posts
 Posted 03/30/2011  11:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add HeadsIWin to your friends list
That's why I wrote "looks" like MD. It looks like shelving to me- I'm not an expert and I'm still learning. No offense to anyone I'm just being honest and obviously still learning.

By the way, congrats on a nice find!
Edited by HeadsIWin
03/30/2011 11:59 pm
Valued Member
United States
260 Posts
 Posted 03/31/2011  12:16 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add HeadsIWin to your friends list
Now I see the notching. Thanks for pointing that out ikandigit. Does a doubled die need to have notching for it to be a doubled die? Also does that mean MD has no notching?
Valued Member
United States
232 Posts
 Posted 03/31/2011  12:18 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tershaffer to your friends list
thanks all, any guesses on which DDR it is, 1964P-1DR-002P has some value, but 001 not so much. I know its hard to tell from pics, but strongest doubling is on the "OF AMERICA" and lightest on all other devices. You can see notching on all lettering though and the corners of the building. Guesses on grade would help too.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1166 Posts
 Posted 03/31/2011  12:34 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ikandiggit to your friends list
The difference between Mechanical Doubling and doubled dies is explained nicely in this link. Third paragraph in particular:

http://doubleddie.com/144822.html
Valued Member
United States
232 Posts
 Posted 03/31/2011  12:39 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tershaffer to your friends list
never mind, just realized that the 002 is a proof coin, so 001 it is, any guess on grading would be great though just for my own knowledge.
Valued Member
United States
260 Posts
 Posted 03/31/2011  12:46 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add HeadsIWin to your friends list
Thanks icandiggit! That answered my questions- Ya gotta love this forum!
Bedrock of the Community
United States
12437 Posts
 Posted 03/31/2011  01:25 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biokemist6 to your friends list

Quote:
Does a doubled die need to have notching for it to be a doubled die?

Notching/split serifs are present on all doubled dies except for Class 6 doubled dies. Class 6 is characterized by extra thickness on the devices. 1943P-1DO-001 is a good example of a Class 6 with extra thickness most prominent on the date.


Quote:
Also does that mean MD has no notching?

It depends on the type of Machine Doubling. In the vast majority of cases, MD will not have any notching. It gets a bit confusing when dealing with incuse design elements because incuse Machine Doubling looks like a doubled die. Why is that? Think about how a die is made. A cylinder of tool steel is impressed on a positive design(hub) which creates a negative impression on the die. If the second hubbing of the die is not perfectly aligned with the first hubbing, there will be a design overlap, i.e. doubled die. MD is caused by movement of the die during striking. If there is a positive device on a die(incuse on the resulting coin), that movement will replicate a misalignment during the hubbing process and create an effect similar to a doubled die. Fortunately, few coins have any incuse design details and it is mainly limited to the designer initials on some of the State Quarters.
Valued Member
United States
105 Posts
 Posted 03/31/2011  01:52 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Design_Guy to your friends list
Congrats, Nice find!
Pillar of the Community
United States
7629 Posts
 Posted 03/31/2011  09:08 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coppercoins to your friends list
never mind, just realized that the 002 is a proof coin, so 001 it is, any guess on grading would be great though just for my own knowledge.

It's nowhere near that simple. There are over 30 different doubled die reverses for 1964 cents, and careful examination would be absolutely necessary to determine which one yours is. I can tell you that it is definitely NOT 001. This doubled die has a completely different appearance and is of a different class of doubling than 001.
Valued Member
United States
232 Posts
 Posted 03/31/2011  10:39 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tershaffer to your friends list
When trying to determine which variety it is, does the mint mark matter since they were punched separately? for example could you have an 1964"S" mint who's variety is listed as a 1964"D" on the webster site? Just trying to get a grasp of identifying them as well, seems very tedious.
Pillar of the Community
United States
3592 Posts
 Posted 03/31/2011  11:08 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Maineman750 to your friends list
tershaffer...no..the site will list each variety seperate for the different mints in your case. Just go to coppercoins website and do a variety search.It will allow you to narrow down the search to the date, mint mark, and obverse or reverse. You can ignore the other criteria for now.
Pillar of the Community
United States
7629 Posts
 Posted 03/31/2011  11:18 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coppercoins to your friends list
It is tedious.

I'm sure your example is hypothetical, but there were no 'S' minted 1964 coins. Anywhoo...

To answer your question - in a word, no. Dies were hung on the press, used, and destroyed. They were not shipped from place to place and used on different presses, and no coins with one mintmark were struck at a mint that uses a different (or no) mintmark. So, to that effect, it is impossible for a 1964P doubled die to have been used in Denver as a 1964D doubled die.

There are presently (embarassingly) only 7 different doubled die reverse dies listed on my site for 1964 Philly minted cents (both business strike and proof). There are actually over 30 different dies known - how do I know? I own over 20 different ones, most I have never listed or photographed...just no time. Additionally, CONECA lists 32 different dies, and Wexler had at one time listed at LEAST 63 different doubled dies for 1964P reverses. How do I know that? Page 193 of the Authoritative Reference on Lincoln Cents (1996) shows a cross reference to CONECA 63-R-II. That first number is the die number, which meant there were 62 other documented dies. The original CONECA system was scrapped some time between 2000 and 2004 for a total rebuild, and to date they have (re)listed 32 different dies.

My box-o-coins to add contains 46 examples of 1964 Philly doubled die reverse cents that I have not yet had the time to attribute - many of them are proof issues...I assume by statistics (and educated guessing) that there are probably about 25 different dies represented there, and none of them are likely any of the 7 I already have listed.

There's a good 14 hours (2-3 full work days) of time to invest in getting the record straight on just what I own...never mind the tens of thousands of 1964P DDRs out there that nobody has a useful die number on.

So you see...it's a LOT, LOT more involved than this being die #1 or die #2 based on whether it's a business strike or a proof. There's actually a science built into this, and detailed investigation is necessary to determine whether your coin was struck by a previously known die. This is why I said (and commonly say) that the exact die that minted your coin cannot be determined with the images provided. It is very often simply impossible to see the details necessary.
Valued Member
United States
232 Posts
 Posted 03/31/2011  8:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tershaffer to your friends list
thanks,that actually simplifies things, for me anyways. My main reason for even worrying
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