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Valued Member
 Canada
88 Posts |
I don't get it... If it's different than a vam-9 then how can they call it a one. The die cracks on our coins are completely different... I though I was getting a handle on this vamming thing, and now this... We should see what we can do at vamworld.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
14454 Posts |
I didn't look at the VAM you were referring to last night because I was on my way out the door, the cracks can progress as they are struck but they should still be identifiable by the way the cracks are traveling. I agree your coin is not a VAM-6A like the original post asked, There are no pictures of the VAM-9 so I can't really say but if LVA said nlp's was a VAM-9 and yours matches his, then that's what it is |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts |
I would agree with Bryan as its not a near date so it can not be a VAM 6 or 6A..it does seem to fit into the VAM 9 as your coin does appear to match NLP's coin however yours is a later state than NLP's as you have more defined cracks in united....still a VAM 9... |
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Valued Member
United States
133 Posts |
When using cracks and breaks to identify VAMS, it has to be the exact pattern, every zig and zag has to be there, otherwise its not the same. Be very careful when using cracks because they are like finger prints, it can be comparable to going to jail when your finger prints are almost like the perps. and none of us would want that to happen. You can have more of the crack then the reference coin but if you have less and also have other cracks that the reference coin doesn't have, then its a big no!
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Valued Member
Canada
88 Posts |
ok...so if they call these ones VAM 9s. then how about this other one I just scanned...the reverse shows the same breaks (or close too) but the obverse of this one shows completely different breaks. Look close at the UNUM. The VAM 9 states 'specimens will show extensive die cracks on left portion of obverse ' however, my breaks on on the right portion of the obverse. sorry guys, I'm just trying to figure this out. Sorry for the bad scans again, but I just wanted to scan them in quick to see if they matched...and they dont...   |
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
There are three very different coins on this page, so I don't know which one is in question, but I'll take a chance that it is the first one?
I would call the first one vam-3..... the main focus on die cracks (or breaks, as they are called here) are irrelevant to anything.
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Valued Member
United States
133 Posts |
Now Zee, when they first posted it was in reference to VAM 6A and that is a VAM that is identified off the die cracks, it is listed in the VAM description for that VAM. I have a 6A in my collection so I thought I would try to help this newbie out since they used "almost resembles" with breaks, and I was trying to explain that cracks and breaks are an exact science in my opinion. Now for you Zee, if they "are irrelevant to anything", then how come they are used in the 6A description? |
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
I don't know Smitty..... just another one of those inconsistencies in what some folks consider science I guess..... I thought that at one time I knew what a VAM was, but that notion was dispelled with the revelation of 'multi-die pair' vams...... I agree, a die can be identified with cracks..... I agree that a VAM can be identified with cracks.... but can a single VAM consist of multiple die pairs (each of these die pairs having their own unique set of cracks)? You didn't say one thing yet that I disagree with Smitty..... Answer my question though, and that might change. |
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Valued Member
Canada
88 Posts |
Wow.... I just wanted to figure out what VAM I had. And wanted to understand how I can identify vams myself without a doubt, but now I am just plain confused. What I have learned from this thread is that I could have a VAM 9, or a VAM 3, and that was determined by die cracks that do not count towards attributing vams. Just wanted to be clear. Thanks, mike..... |
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
As ocsjr2001 explained, and as nlp coins has shown, the second coin has the exact same rev crack as yours, and it is vam-9..... so yours too is vam-9.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts |
well said and explained...While die cracks/ not die breaks by them selves are not listed as vams, they are however secondary finger prints as many a die has failures and show break within the dies surface..for certain specific dies, part of the die pair thingy....the die cracks are specific/exact that is not found for all coins as they fail in there own EXACT way... for either OBV or REV dies.....one still follows the date and MM placement to channel to the general VAM ID, still one has to remember that the dies crack grow or extend as time goes by,,but they are still UNIQUE as they grow....this would be known as EDS and LDS early or later die states in general...however the die cracks follow the same process... |
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Valued Member
United States
133 Posts |
Zee; I don't have the answer to your question, but I do have an OPINION. I, myself, have a very hard time buying into the theory of a single VAM having multiple die pairs. To me, if you take one old die and pair it with a new die then its a new number, and if you replace the older die with a new one then it should warrant another number, and so on. When dies are changed like this the numbers should change instead of adding A,B, C, etc. and when dies remain the same with differences such as clashing and mint clean up then the letter changes are called for. Its my opinion and I could very well be wrong, anyone and everyone is allowed to disagree, it doesn't cost anything, not even good for a cup of coffee. But Zee, if I ever met you, I will buy you a glass of good wine! |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
14454 Posts |
Quote:but now I am just plain confused. What I have learned from this thread is that I could have a VAM 9, or a VAM 3, and that was determined by die cracks that do not count towards attributing vams. Just wanted to be clear. Thanks, mike..... No one ever said that you can go by the cracks to determine which VAM a coin is, but if all other attributes match along with the cracks then its definitely that VAM. You can look at the cracks and know that there is no way for the cracks to totally be in a different place than another coin and be the same VAM. The cracks can progress and get bigger and deeper but they can not change where they are. It wasn't just the cracks that made us determine your coin and NLP's coin is the same but seeing the cracks did match along with the other attributes helped us to be pretty sure they were the same VAM |
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
Yes, I like the way that you put that Bryan....  We see it the same way Smitty..... either the rules should revolve around the 'die is the die'.... or the rules should gravitate toward 'classification' (similarities)..... either way, but not both..... but I am afraid that it is more than just a 'theory' now though... it is 'fact' (unfortunately).... The descriptions of several vams include the disclaimer of 'this VAM consists of multiple die pairings'..... We have had more than one thread lately where this was the case. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts |
Zee and Smitty, I can totally agree...I still think along old school lines "the die is the die" thing....this newly transformed theory of Multiple wive's/Dies idea.. is just that...a way to cover up....the discrepancies of the current numbering system....AS we are still discovering more new vams every week, and MANY OR are found to be actually a subset of listed VAM's with NO place to put them in the current system, usually they got a new number when found...But as time goes by..they are found to be related or subsets of known vams,,,Now the term is "Die Classification", which means we can alter month by month and change the listings , "Correct the listings" without upheaval of the entire numbering process, which some of us know was in the works and caused many a division in the memberships..(a few years back.) And what of those who had coins graded? or the TPG's involvement? the "Die classification" is an attempt to allow anything new but "related" to have a home in the VAM listings rather than to fill it with new numbers which will be found to be subsets of known vams or vams with close relationships....not needing new numbers as they are all but "pimples on the butt" for differences.. If one had hind sight in the beginning, (and who has?) the numbering system would have had slots for VAM 1, 1A say a clash, 1B for a letter transfer..ECT ECT as there are only so many VAM worthy MAJOR attribution points...all others would fit somewhere into the subcategory of those main attribution points...ergo numbering system could be the same for all the years..... however as we now see its too late for the system to get an overhaul, and redistribute a new numbering system when so much money has already been spent in submissions and resubmissions billions of dollars "DECLARED VALUES"...TPG's backed.ID of specified VAM acceptance/$$$dollars. one must find a way to find balance within the old and new,, as it is still "IN FLUX" I think Scott has found the answer...in the die classification....THEORY....... it allows these small pimples which now seem to plague the community for there rareity...and allow for an unknown die pair with no real VAM "WOOOOOW factor to have a home... It allows for corrections for known listings which are truely within the same family listed by different VAM designations numbers... allowing for a correction and understanding of the coins listed as different but which are now known to be of a shared "die progression state" ok "I've dragged on long to far and I'm almost out of beer...I bid you well my friends... |
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Posted 04/30/2011 4:48 pm
