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 Replies: 30 / Views: 3,628 |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10045 Posts |
Great coin and it's nice to know there's always something new to learn with ancients!
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
4778 Posts |
Doug, if your there, just wondering why mine could be an Antioch instead of Cyzicus. Thanks.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4778 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1549 Posts |
You may be right about Cyzicus. Looking it up again I'm not sure how you tell the difference other than style when the workshop is A through S. Antioch used more shops so a coin marked Z, H, ED or I (7-10) must be Antioch like the ED I posted. I'm no expert in these but see mine and Jango's as the same mint style. Bobbyhelmet's coin looks a bit different to my amateur eye so it could be Cyzicus but that is a guess. Look also at RIC 322 on Wildwinds. Wildwinds is a wonderful, free, online resource but most attributions are just copies of sales listings (many from ebay) with accuracy no better than the dealer that sold the coin. When I see a difference between Wildwinds and another source, I'm not too surprised. In this case the difference seems to be style and I'm not a specialist so I might have an opinion worth little. I do not know a specialist in Diocletian to ask. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4778 Posts |
Maybe it's just the small differences, like one dot after XXI on my coin, or the styles of the bust (bobby told me on another thread that bust types can help in determining the mint of origin). Just my guess. Thanks for answering Doug.
Edited by VisigothKing
10/06/2011 01:22 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1549 Posts |
One of the things I don't like about RIC volume V is the way they lumped so many variations under one number. The Antioch coin listed as 322 allows two bust types and reverses with or without a dot in front of XXI so, with 10 workshops, a complete set of #322 is 21 coins (there is one with the dot and no shop letter). Right below it #323 is a different reverse with two obverse options and six series separated by where the dot is placed and the presence or absence of a star or crescent. It can get hard to follow and harder to give a catalog number that orders a collection.
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
2838 Posts |
I've just looked through most of the examples on Wildwinds to see if I could find any style matches and think I'm more confused than ever. I think Doug is right in that many of the coin pictures (or enough to muddy the waters) have been attributed to the wrong mints meaning even if a die match was found to one of our coins I would not be happy to assume the data with it was 100% correct. We need to find some pictures we are 100% happy have been attributed correctly and work from those. I'm far from an expert on these coins unlike some other series where I can make decisions based on style. Perhaps another approach could be to concentrate on the coins we are absolutely sure came from Antioch - namely those with the ANT mintmark and see what conclusions (if any) can be drawn from them. This could turn into a very interesting thread  The only thing I would attempt to state at the minute is that Jango and ElleKittys coins def come from the same mint. Dougs very probably also. Mine probably not. Edited by bobbyhelmet
10/06/2011 10:51 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2596 Posts |
HERRACLEA mint   |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4253 Posts |
Great detail JW P.S.  Edited by Bing
10/07/2011 10:34 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4778 Posts |
Hey don't steal my thread! lol just kidding  . Very nice coin! |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2596 Posts |
I think the silvered DIOCLETIANS look much better then mine. Its on my list to get one in the future. NICE COIN
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
2838 Posts |
OK - So after hearing Dougs doubts about the accuracy of Wildwinds and having some of my own after I found some wrongly attributed Galerius coins I decided to have a good look at the Diocletians on there. Conclusion - its a bit of a mess, dont get me wrong, we are lucky to have such a good, free resource as Wildwinds but its only as good as the info uploaded to it. I fear that for some of the more confusing coins (like the pre-reform Cyz + Ant Dios) the site could be mis-leading. To be honest I also think RIC is a bit confusing on this subject and that this shows through on the usually excellent Helvetica tables for this coin issue. I'm sure I'm covering what is to some people very basic ground but quite fancy a bit of a study into the bust styles to try and pin each of ours down 100%. As much to learn something as to ID the coins, I can also add I know very little about these coins so I'm starting at the very beginning so anyone is welcome to chip in. I figure, as I dont know of any definitely reliable resources for pre-reform attribution we should start with post-reform coins as they have mintmarks on them, jessvc1 posting the Heraclea was good timing. BTW thats an excellent result for a coin that was cleaned using electrolysis  Below are a few pics (very small sample) I have stuck together of post reform coins to see if I can see any patterns. Conclusion - my eyes hurt from staring at them so I'm going to bed. The 'project' however has at least started!  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4253 Posts |
Of the coins you posted Bobbyhelmet, I cannot for the life of me find any patterns. However, I do agree, there must be. Its just that I am not seeing any. I'll take a break and go back to it again later. I've done this three times now.
JW
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
2838 Posts |
I agree JW - not much can be garnered from the above sample. I would however say that the first Antioch coin has a similar peculiar bust proportion and deportment as shown on my coin.
It also though differs greatly from the other Antioch coins, I've seen others who claim to be able to match die cutters work even though die matches are not found - impressive indeed.
More samples needed I think - I think we can get to the bottom of this given enough time and effort.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4253 Posts |
Since I don't have a post reform Diocletian, I have been trying to compare my post reform Maximianus from Heraclea, to those of the Diocletian's you posted. Even though there are only a few years separating the two emperors, the die cutters should not have changed other than through normal attrition. I thought this way I could enlarge my image to see what similarities I could find. NONE that I can see. Here is my coin. Perhaps you can see something, but I can't. JW  |
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Replies: 30 / Views: 3,628 |
First Page
Posted 10/05/2011 3:55 pm
