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Pillar of the Community
United States
4589 Posts |
some counterfeits are not even detected by some experts, If they are honoring a money back gurantee , they maybe in fact a victim as well, and of course maybe not if you could post a picture of each obverse and reverse that would help we have Morgan experts as well as a counterfiet expert and just about anyother type of expert for any series of coins , some of them are also in the fight against fradulant dealers and sellers, coins and I am sure they can guide you in the right direction. Hang out, and enjoy It might take an hour or 2 maybe even a day or so , but I bet you will get a good honest perspective, with info. and if I know some of these cats it Might be a page or 2 long filled with several links etc. Welcome to the forum JIM. P.s. also don't let one bad deal ruin your chance to enjoy and take part in a wonderful hobbie.
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New Member
 United States
6 Posts |
I hope you can see the problems with these coins. The 21 has work done on liberty's forehead and the 84 in the white holder is fake and the one in the clear holder (ICG) is real. Please let me know what you think. Thanks Image:  Picture 016.jpg33.7 KB Image: Picture 037.jpg34.45 KB Image: Picture 036.jpg34.79 KB |
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Valued Member
United States
390 Posts |
Where did you buy these coins? Based on this, we may be able to offer some advise to you. And, welcome to the forum!  |
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Moderator
 United States
23537 Posts |
You need to let us know the details and we can help, there are a number of organizations from the Better Business Bureau up the Us Secret Service, depending on the circumstances and the amounts and how they advertised.
You can post your information here or you can email the forum Mom Susan or myself and we will help you get the ball rolling.
Again welcome to the forum
rggoodie
aka Richard
"catch em doing something right"
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Rest in Peace
United States
2684 Posts |
Michael, welcome to the forum! The collective knowledge of this group is awesome and the group is very willing to help others.
I can't see enough detail on the 21S Morgan to make an assessment since the image is a little fuzzy. The image of the 1884 in the white holder (image 37) doesn't show enough to make a determination. What makes you think the 1884 in image 37 is counterfeit? If it were a casting, the granulations would be evident in a closeup. 1884-O is a very common Morgan, so any counterfeits would have been made in large numbers for the volume trade (say, for use at a casino); they are usually fairly crude. Fake 84-Os would not be made for the collector trade.
What we need are images of the Morgans on both sides and, if they're in slabs, pics of them also. If possible, weigh the suspect Morgan; it should weigh 412.5 grains (26.730 grams). Anything less than 400 grains (a very well circulated Morgan) or more than 413 grains would be suspect; a weight within this range would not rule out a counterfeit Morgan, but further tests would need to be done.
It may not be a good idea to contact anyone at this point before confirming suspicions about a coin's representation.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts |
What your stating is rather a complicated situation. If it ever became a legal item you may find that unless you have substantial proof, in writting, that the coins you acquired are the same ones that have been identitified as fakes or counterfiets, that organization would not have to reimberse you for them. However, you stated they were willing to refund your money so that may be interpreted as either good faith policies on their behalf or an admission of guilt. Regardless of the results of that situation, be carefull of mentioning their names as an organization that is scamming, selling under false pretenses, unless you have documented proof. They, in turn good bring legal actions against you for slander.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4589 Posts |
I knew all of the right people would show up Thanks for helping everyone
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New Member
United States
6 Posts |
Hi, and thanks for the help. The reason I think the 84 O is fake is. The "1" is fatter you can tell this if you are looking at the pic's side by side. All the letters and stars are to close to the rim and the letters are too fat. The 21 has a shinny spot on liberty's head witch appears to be solder or something like that. Also when I told the sellers about my suspicions they sent Fed-X the very next day to get the coins. I have more pictures maybe the will help. Also the 21 mint mark "s" is so small you can't see it under magnification as the pic's show. Also note the reverse of the 84 O the wings touch the rim and the letters are also to fat. Look at the distance between the grain and leafs from the "R" and "I" above liberty's head Image: Picture 009.jpg31.76 KB Image: Picture 013.jpg40.06 KB Image: Picture 006.jpg33.87 KB Image: Picture 011.jpg30.05 KB Image: Picture 013.jpg40.07 KB Image: Picture 016.jpg33.7 KB Image: Picture 017.jpg31.99 KB Image: Picture 018.jpg40.52 KB Image: Picture 021.jpg40.42 KB Image: Picture 022.jpg28.32 KB Image: Picture 023.jpg31.7 KB Image: Picture 026.jpg41.14 KB Image: Picture 012.jpg39.55 KB Image: Picture 028.jpg35.1 KB Image: Picture 030.jpg32.43 KB Image: Picture 031.jpg37.45 KB |
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Rest in Peace
United States
2684 Posts |
Michael, good pics! I completely agree the 21-S has a serious "bruise" on Liberty's forehead which, if submitted to a top TPG would probably get her bodybagged (rejected for grading). We've got a couple 1921 Morgan specialists in the group who should be along any moment. The 1884-O is a different matter. Among the most commonly minted Morgans, the 84-O has some 36 different varieties from about 40 die pairs (according to Bowers, The Official Red Book of Morgan Silver Dollars, the bible for Morgan collectors). There is a lot of variation among Morgans (over 3000 VAMs listed) and I believe this Morgan is illustrative of that variation. It is in Mint State condition with good luster, something which would not be found in a counterfeit of a common coin; almost certainly, a fake of an 84-O Morgan would be a casting, something which would be readily apparent by casting sprues, seams, and a granulated appearance, not to mention a lighter weight although if manufactured for the casino machine trade, it would have enough lead to balance the sorting beams inside the machine. But it then would have a lead-like luster. The Morgan VAM specialists should be along any moment. SuperDave, you're being called! They can give you a readout of the specific variety which this Morgan might represent. After seeing these images, whatever you do, don't try to report them as counterfeits. It would be a lot of trouble over nothing. Fred |
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Valued Member
United States
344 Posts |
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
Who, me? I must beg off, at least for the evening. I'm fighting a cold and my alarm, which doesn't care, will be ringing in 6.5 hours like usual. Tomorrow afternoon I'll be back to do some serious looking, but I will mention that the 4 in the 1884 bothers me more than the 1, and the denticles caught my eye as well. I don't know that year well from memory, but we'll have a look and see what's up. |
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Valued Member
United States
344 Posts |
The link below is similar as to point you towards the slab compaines the coins are capsulated in. This site refers to picture 016. It is possibly the link is to a company that may or may not be associated with NGS.From what is availbile to me it maybe one of the same further investigation into the owners or participants can only reveal this. This is all I can add to what others have given. Like alot of others have said be selective in how you word things until you are positive about your suspicions. Also do keep copies of everything you may have written and put on any forum it helps in the end if need be. http://www.qngs.com/qngs04_002.htm The article below refers to this company and the writer has always an abundant of information on grading companies that is informative and like the writer says alot of new grading companies choose letters close to the top grading services (NGS similar to NGC ) http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art38730.aspEdited by mishap-coins
12/20/2006 9:06 pm
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New Member
United States
6 Posts |
Thanks for the great info. You all really have helped. About the 84 O, I was also concerned that it might be a die variation and if it is I have never seen one like it. Like SuperDave mentioned the denticles are strange. I guess the thing that makes me the most suspicious is that everything is out of proportion, like the fat letters and numbers and they are to close to the denticles on obverse and reverse. When you hold this coin beside a real coin it is more obvious. The 84 even looks smaller. If it is a die variation I may want to keep it right? But I know the 21S has been worked on, like Morgan Fred said, Liberty has a serious "Bruise" on her forehead.
Thanks again!!
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Valued Member
United States
236 Posts |
Well, I will jump back in after several weeks off the forum- hospital and recovery-- I must say there has been a lot of interest in the above Morgan problem and it is indeed gratifying to see all the responses. Someone offered advice concerning weight- and to me this will usually tell the story- real or fake- Aside from the Morgan problem, I ran into another fake situation this week-(my son got two Oriental coins) He likes to collect some of the Chinese Dragon coins. Let me say here that I believe at least 95-99% of these Oriental coins Chinese or Japanese are fakes. With these, you can readily tell if they are silver by using the magnet test- Silver will not adhere to the magnet. BOth of his coins were not silver but were advertised as such. When and internet seller offers such coins as silver- ask for the grain-gram figures. If they are not willing to produce that- then forget it. It is amazing to see the large influx of crooked-people now on the internet. Not searched-or acquired from estate - these phrases turn my stomach- Also, most of you know- if you must acquire 3rd party slabbed (Certified coins) do so with those who have the top reputations- And have you noticed how many more 3rd party grading companies have sprung up? So for my money, I do not consider any body expert- There is still disagreement between 3rd party graders- and so we have some bright entreprueners who practicing 'cracking' slabs- based on the very idea that the next grader might be more generous- So if it is all about money-most of the affluent new collectors will go for the slabs.--Well, I have said my piece-for whatever it is worth-- but in the meantime- Happy happy holidays to one and all-and may we all be endowed with lots of good (Cents) in the coming year. Dewey
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1152 Posts |
I hate seeing a fellow collector get scammed... Don't let it ruin your coin collecting experience though. WELCOME!
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Posted 12/19/2006 10:56 pm
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