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Early Dates

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Litotes's Avatar
Norway
510 Posts
 Posted 05/12/2008  07:33 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Litotes to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
A part of my collection is different visible dates. To qualify the coin must have the last to numerals and preferably all four. (there is only one to-digit coin in this collection, a Swedish ˝ öre from (15)84.) It is not enough to be able to calculate which year the coin must have been made and the date must be given in numbers, not letters.

I have occasionally wondered how far back I could conceivaby go with this. My personal record is a Lithuanian half grosh from 1509, but I doubt that is the eldest one available. Is there anyone here with something even older? Or knowledge of such?
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Archraz's Avatar
United States
3499 Posts
 Posted 05/12/2008  3:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Archraz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Litotes- so are you asking what is the oldest coin that actually has a specific date on the coin?
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Litotes's Avatar
Norway
510 Posts
 Posted 05/12/2008  4:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Litotes to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, a specific date given in numbers. Something you can tell when was made simply by looking at it. I have never seen a coin with a specific date older than my 1509 but I would not be at all surprised to learn someone else here has.
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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16827 Posts
 Posted 05/12/2008  9:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I assume you mean AD calendar dates written using the Western numeral system. Yes, there are "plenty" of known coin types with dates prior to 1500. They've even written a book about them, if you're keen on making this a theme.

The earliest AD date known on a coin, quoted on the cover of that book as 1234, was done in Roman numerals I believe.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 05/13/2008  9:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I would build a bit on something that Sap said. You are limiting your search to western dates. There are OTHER dating systems that were used on coins you know.

There are ancient coins with regnal years. Many ancient systems measured time by the reign of the King or Emperor. Some coins carry those dates which can be translated to a specific western date. Jewish second century coins of the rebel Bar-Kotchba are dated by the year of the revolt. These translate to dates in the 170s AD.

There are also the Arabic dates based on the year of the Hejira 622 AD. There are quite a few early dates in that series.

Sorry to appear picky, but there are cultures that do not use Western (Christian) dates.

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Litotes's Avatar
Norway
510 Posts
 Posted 05/14/2008  4:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Litotes to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
swamperbob, I am perfectly aware of the fact that there exists other dates. That was why I tried to specify that these fall outside my particular field of interest. US collectors frequently collect US coins first and foremost. Brits do the same with British coins. Westerners like me focus on western dates. Nothing unusual about it, I would say. For me the digits 0123456789 in exactly this form has special interest. I have however been guilty of giving an inadequate description, leaving undesired ambiguity. I am glad you still managed to obtain the meaning, and I am grateful to Sap for the book tip.
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Jays-Dad's Avatar
United States
790 Posts
 Posted 05/20/2008  11:08 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Jays-Dad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My record is a 1564 1/2 Groschen from Poland. You got me beat by 50+ years. By the way, is there any Krause catalog from 1501-1600? Any plans for one? I've only got a few coins from the 1500s so I wouldn't need to own one, just access one. I'm guessing not since I looked into my 17th century Krause and found that many of the places (like Poland) start with KM1, what would the 16th century become then, KMnegatives?
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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16827 Posts
 Posted 05/20/2008  8:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
is there any Krause catalog from 1501-1600? Any plans for one?

No, and probably, once they do enough research. The 1600's edition is full of errors and omissions, so I'd rather they took their time to get all the research right the first time.

Quote:
I'm guessing not since I looked into my 17th century Krause and found that many of the places (like Poland) start with KM1, what would the 16th century become then, KMnegatives?

Krause would do what they've done before, and renumber the entire series for that country. Annoying, yes, but it's the only way around the problem.

Back onto the subject at hand. I never answered the OP question about my oldest AD/numeral dated coin. It's a Hungarian denar of Wladislas II, dated 1508.

As for the theoretical, I looked up Doty's "Encyclopedic Dictionary of Numismatics" under "dating systems", where it confirms the oldest AD date is 1234, written in Roman numerals on coins from Roskilde, Denmark.

The oldest use of "modern" numerals to indicate the date is given to be a coin of the Swiss canton of St Gall, in 1424. Example on CoinArchives. You can see the date figures in the top left of the obverse, at around the 10 o'clock position. If you're having trouble spotting it, I've highlighted it here:
Early-Dates
The "4"s are somewhat archaically-shaped, and very similar to an upside-down "Indian 4", but it's still recognisable as "1424".
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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