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 Replies: 31 / Views: 24,295 |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts |
It has now been reported on the NGC forum that fake NGC slabs are beginning to appear on ebay coming out of China. So far two have been reported and I have also received a report of one offered over the counter to a dealer in central Indiana. So far only one picture is available and it is not a good picture. I will try and get it uploaded a little later, or you can see it on the NGC forum under US coins, thread title Fake NGC slabs (Part II) One of the key features on the slab in the thread is that the font of the grade is wrong for this generation of slab. It uses a with serif font on the U with the right upright slightly thinner than the left. The proper font should be san-serif and there should be a vertical descender on the right side of the U that drops slightly below the curve of the U so the letter has a "tail" It looks like a printed lower case u. The problem is this would only identify coins in AU slabs. (I say this is reported to be a fake because there is the slight chance that this may just be an error by NGC using the wrong font, or they may have made a change to the slabs that I do not know about yet.) The first piece seen has a 1795 bust dollar in the holder. I do not know what was in the second one. (Auction was pulled by ebay before I saw the thread.) The over the counter one had an 09 VDB cent in it graded MS-66, but the coin was only a VF. It was also reported that the cent slab was not sealed, just snapped together. As more information becomes available I will add more details. Pictures of first fake   Pictures of second fake   Enlarged photos of labels, both fake and real, with commentary on font differences. There are definite differences in the font they are using for the grade Here are some comparison pictures of just the label area. Sorry for the quality of the images. Labels from the fakes are above and a label from a real label below them. First the AU. Note the vertical descender on the right side of the genuine U   Then the VF. It is difficult to see on the images but the fake has serifs on the arms and there is a noticeable difference in the lengths of the arms. On the real one the top arm has a single serif and the lower arm doesn't. The arms on the real one are short and about the same length. On the fake the V comes down evenly to the point which has a flat bottom. On the genuine the letter comes to a sharp point with the left side coming in at a much sharper angle than the right side. You see a definite change in the slope about three fourths of the way down the left leg.   There are also some differences in the font of the lettering that they use when the have words on the top line. Note the E used in the two fake labels with the E in Barber on the genuine VF. On the fake the top and bottom arms are the same length while on the genuine the bottom arm is noticeably longer. Edited by Conder101
08/17/2007 12:29 pm
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Moderator
 United States
6563 Posts |
To beat a dead horse
"Buy the Coin...Not the Slab"
we all know this but it's unfortunate that this one act of counterfeit could turn off a newbie for life if they didn't know any better.
I look forward to seeing some pictures
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Valued Member
United States
287 Posts |
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Moderator
United States
6563 Posts |
Wow!
You'd think that with all the work they put into that they'd get the font spot on...if they did....that'd be a killer way to sell coins from overseas
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Bedrock of the Community
 United States
17884 Posts |
What I can't understand is how after three days this thread has only generated three comments! NGC is the number two grading service and so many of the people out there live and die by the slab company grade, but there is almost no reaction to the fact that the coins they are paying big money for based on the grade on the holder may be in FAKE holders!
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Rest in Peace
United States
2684 Posts |
Conder, thanks for drawing peoples' attention to this.
Is there any chance these are genuine NGC slabs but only counterfeit labels (and, presumably, counterfeit coins)?
As you stated, if the Chinese are getting this clever, PCGS is next.
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Valued Member
United States
344 Posts |
I am curious if this is an actual slab someone has bought or is it an item someone is selling and only using pictures to sell something that isn't available ?
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
14454 Posts |
if this keeps up NGC should allow everyone (not only paid members) to look up certification numbers like PCGS does
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1267 Posts |
Jeez  If it's not one thing it's another. Having to deal with the fake coins from wherever was bad enough but now we (as collectors) have to be concerned with fake slabs and the fake coins in them. About all one can do is arm yourselves with knowledge, but this is getting crazy. IMO the TPG industry needs to get a grip on this and I mean NOW if they are to be taken seriously in the future. If it means international trade boycotts and federal regulation then so be it. This is just another example of something going from bad to worse... Take Care and Keep Your Eyes Open. Ben |
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Valued Member
United States
101 Posts |
The most obvious thing I see as a diff is that the real ngc slabs have two really light watermark like triangles behind the grade. Neither of the fake ones shown here have that. So that may be ONE way to spot them.
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Valued Member
United Kingdom
91 Posts |
"The over the counter one had an 09 VDB cent in it graded MS-66, but the coin was only a VF. It was also reported that the cent slab was not sealed, just snapped together."
Is it not possible that the owner cracked the slab photocopied the grade the changed it from VF to MS66 printed it off stuck it back into the old slab (keeping the back holigram) and tried to sell it on, or perhaps sold it to the next person(who can't grade well) who then tried to pass it off over the counter.?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
954 Posts |
I am at a lose for words. I would have never expected the fakes to be so convincing.
Thanks for sharing this with us.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts |
I haven't been able to see any of the fakes in person yet so I can't say for sure if they are completely fake slabs or real slabs with fake labels but either way it is a bad deal. And usually the slabs do not survive being cracked open too well, and you can see stress fractures or stress marks on the edges. There are very few slabs that actually come out of NGC unsealed. The two slabs pictured were offered for sale on ebay. The first one sold for over $3,000. In the case of the second one it was reported to NGC and the auction was pulled by ebay almost immediately. quote:
The most obvious thing I see as a diff is that the real ngc slabs have two really light watermark like triangles behind the grade. Neither of the fake ones shown here have that. So that may be ONE way to spot them.
I wouldn't count on that. On most of the NGC generations after #9 the scales underprinting often does not show well in pictures, especially pictures created by scanners. You will note that even in the genuine labels shown the scales do not show well, and these were much better images than the fake slabs were. The fake slab images are poor enough that I would not be willing to say whether the scales are there or not. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2443 Posts |
Very informative! Thanks for the write up.
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Valued Member
United States
101 Posts |
That I did not know Conder101. I am not familiar at all with TPG's as I am more interested in raw coins so I dont really know much about them at all. Its very likely that the scales looking underprinting is just not showing on the pic like you said, that would make sense cause I know its hard to photograph coins and get the same detail as when its in hand so it wouldn't suprise me that parts of a holder can be the same way. Good to know tho appreciate it, and I really hope that there is a way to tell the fakes from the real ones for the collectors that do collector slabbed coins. I would hate for someone to get taken for anything buying a fake one. Steve |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5318 Posts |
How interesting...I've suspected some PCGS slabs as well, but without any definitive proof. What's next--a service that authenticates a slab? Gotta love that redundant authenticity!  A while back, I wrote to PCGS concerned about this trend. There's too much profit in slab forgery to brush aside the future threat. I propose that TPGs provide a random-generated code to the owner of the slabbed coin, where this info would be discreetly given to a prospective buyer to verify owner/authenticity. By this method, a slab forger might be able to forge a slab and a correct #, but have no access to the secret PIN, bringing their wares into suspicion. Edited by KurtS
12/02/2007 4:48 pm
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Replies: 31 / Views: 24,295 |
Posted 08/15/2007 5:15 pm
