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Gothic Crown 1847 Queen Victoria Great Britain

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New Member

Netherlands
5 Posts
 Posted 02/17/2016  3:17 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Philip2 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hi all,

Just bought this Gothic Crown from a reputable Swedish coindealer. It has been circulating for a short time and the coin is sold as nearly Very Fine. The real nice ones are hitting big prizes these days so I was looking for a crown in decent, circulated, state at a fair price.

Sadly there are a lot of counterfeits of this type and it would, also sadly, not be the first time a reputable dealer sells a counterfeit coin by mistake.
The weight of the coin is 28,12 grams. It looks OK (checked the great amount of pictures of counterfeits) to me but I like to hear your comments.
Thanks in advance.








New Member
Australia
6 Posts
 Posted 09/09/2020  04:41 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CrownDownUnder to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I also just bought a 1847 Gothic Crown in Australia and it seems to match the one above exactly. I picked it up online, private sale for $1100AUD which is 614UK pounds sterling or $796US at time of writing. I have no experience with numismatics whatsoever and I didn't even check to see if this was authentic. After it didn't sell for the price the seller wanted, he called me back and offered it for the price at which a local outback coin dealer offered. I didn't try to negotiate, he was after a quick "yes" or "no" answer, so I just took it. Anyway, it looks like it has at least been circulated, it has fine scratches, some nicks, dings etc. and overall, I really like it. It's my favourite coin and despite all the issues with it, I'm scratching my head and wondering why these 1847 Victoria Gothic Crown's don't sell for tens of thousands of dollars more? I mean, only 8000 were minted and they are +173 years old! I'm looking around on eBay at other crowns, the 1938 Australian Crown for eg. of which +101000 were minted and are selling for as much as $1200AUD. There are plenty of them available and you don't even have to try hard to find one in excellent condition. So what am I missing?

I've included some photos, quality is poor as I've taken them with my phone but you probably get the picture. Despite the imperfections, I'm really happy. I wouldn't swap it for ten 1938 crowns. If not for the way it is, scratches, nicks, dings and all, I wouldn't even own it.




Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
510 Posts
 Posted 09/09/2020  05:45 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Hogarth to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Philip, it's difficult to say for sure without seeing a coin in hand but nothing about your crown immediately screams fake
One thing though: no way is that coin NVF. London Coin Auctions can always be relied upon to accurately grade coins they offer for sale so here are some of their photographs for comparison. The first was graded by them as NVF. The second as Fine. As you'll see, your coin would struggle to meet their requirements for the latter.
If you paid anything like NVF catalogue price it was too expensive.




Edited by Hogarth
09/09/2020 09:07 am
New Member
Australia
6 Posts
 Posted 09/09/2020  08:08 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CrownDownUnder to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I may have confused the situation here by responding to an old unanswered thread from early 2016. I was trying to confirm if my coin was legit based on the images Philip posted and then I decided to include a rant about the current valuations.

Anyway, the point I was trying to make, regardless of whether or not I paid too much for mine, is that the Gothic Crowns don't seem to be expensive, at least not relatively speaking to other crowns in general. To me personally, it's one of the most attractive coins and I've been waiting a long time to find one available locally. I'm actually surprised that they don't sell for so much more given the true scarcity. If a coins with a mintage of +101000 in 1938 are considered scarce, what do you call a mere 8000 in 1847, taking into consideration that many became jewellery pieces, were circulated or even scratched up by someone over the past +173 trying to clean them.

The Gothic coins are underrated IMO. So much interesting history surrounding them not to mention the awesome design.

Fortunately, my coin is worth more to me than I paid for it, even if it is too much.
Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
510 Posts
 Posted 09/09/2020  09:10 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Hogarth to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes CDU, I later noticed Philip's post was an old one.
Your crown is in much better condition than the OP coin and so, obviously, more desirable if genuine.
Quality will always retain value.
Edited by Hogarth
09/09/2020 3:47 pm
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United States
90906 Posts
Pillar of the Community
New Zealand
1471 Posts
 Posted 09/09/2020  3:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Princetane to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Philips coin is definitely kosher, Crown Down under I suspect yours is fake and possibly a Chinese one artifically aged to make it look used.

The way you bought it, a dealer demanding yes or no answer also screams red signs.

Lets hope the world finally wakes up to the atrocities China commits and finally stops allowing Chinese fakes to circulate.
Loving Halfcrowns. British and Commonwealth coins 1750 - 1950 and anything Kiwi.
If it's round, shiny and silvery I will love it.
Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
7602 Posts
 Posted 09/09/2020  3:34 pm  Show Profile   Check NumisRob's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add NumisRob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
CrownDownUnder - please could you post a photo of the edge lettering flat on, rather than at an angle? The edge inscription is usually the easiest way to identify a fake.

These are photos of the edge inscription on my crown. I've had it for years and bought it from a very reputable English dealer, so I'm pretty confident that it's genuine. It's in about GVF to NEF condition overall:


I think the value of 1847 Gothic crowns reflects the fact that not many circulated, and that, even though some were abused and used in jewelry, the vast majority probably still exist and thousands are still in EF or UNC condition. On the other hand, the 1847 Young Head crown, for instance, has a much higher mintage figure but the vast majority went into circulation and many would have been melted down.
Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
510 Posts
 Posted 09/09/2020  4:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Hogarth to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

"I also just bought a 1847 Gothic Crown in Australia and it seems to match the one above exactly. I picked it up online, private sale for $1100AUD which is 614UK pounds sterling or $796US at time of writing. I have no experience with numismatics whatsoever and I didn't even check to see if this was authentic."

I guess the obvious question would be; Why?
Knowing nothing about coins you chose to pay £614 for something you have no way of knowing is genuine or fake?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_..._sacat=58520
Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
510 Posts
New Member
Australia
6 Posts
 Posted 09/09/2020  6:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CrownDownUnder to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wow, yeah. I see what you mean about fakes. I guess I like the story it potentially tells. If it is indeed a fake, and I suppose it could very well be, I'll get satisfaction out of putting a hammer to it. TBH, it didn't seem like a dodgy deal. I bought it from a guy selling coins for his grandfather. I don't buy coins for an investment or to make money from them. To me, it's all about the story and this is one of the more interesting ones. About 2 months after buying a "godless" florin off him, he came back to me offering the Crown at a much lower price, along with a bunch of other coins, including pennies, several other gothic coins (godless type also) and an 1804 Bank of England token dollar. Apparently, a local coin dealer offered to buy the crown for the price I mentioned and that's what he then offered it to me for. All the other coins I got were bundled in for a little extra, as he just wanted to get rid of them.

I'm not sure when his grandfather bought this crown, it could have been decades ago but I suppose, the Chinese have been doing this sort of thing for a while.

Does anyone have any advice on how I can get it properly assessed for authenticity? I don't care about the grading, since I can't imagine ever wanting to sell it, I just need to confirm that it's a fake. I'll happily post the end result here down the track, assessment result with a hammered coin.
New Member
Australia
6 Posts
 Posted 09/09/2020  8:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CrownDownUnder to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It's amazing what a bit of natural light can do. I deleted the previous post due to the poor quality of the photos. These are a little better though still only phone camera quality.

Anyway, for what it's worth, here they are.











Hopefully these are enough to confirm that it's fake. I'm now wondering how many of the other coins I received could be fakes also. :(
New Member
Australia
6 Posts
 Posted 09/10/2020  07:43 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CrownDownUnder to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have a quick update. I took the coin to what looks like the biggest coin auction house in Sydney, a place on Margaret street before the close of business today. Not sure if it's okay to mention who they are, so I'll hold that for now. They run coin Auction's regularly and even have a couple of these crowns up for sale in an upcoming auction. They examined this crown under 10x magnification and confirmed it as genuine. I was even offered money for it on the spot, as well as the opportunity to auction it off under commission of about 15%.

They did say that this coin has been handled badly, scratched up and all. None of which really bothers me and if this wasn't the case, I wouldn't probably own it now. I'm stoked, it's a coin with and interesting story and it somehow ended up with me.

Anyway, unless they're missing something, I might have just gotten lucky. A guy with virtually no idea, buying something like this online without losing money. I suspect it's a bit of a fluke. Further to this, it looks like all the other coins I received as part of the "extended" deal are genuine also. I'm still new here, learning on the fly but I'm keen to post them here also, in separate, new threads.

In the meantime, I'm still keen to hear opinions about the authenticity. Perhaps something was missed? Or perhaps not?
Valued Member
United Kingdom
179 Posts
 Posted 09/10/2020  08:02 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Collector28 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Forgive my intrusion, but I'm with Hogarth on this - throwing over £600 on something you've zero experience in, and then being quite willing to accept that loss (you mentioned taking a hammer to it if fake, thus accepting your lost money and not attempting a refund) seems a trifle laid back. Obviously it's your choice how you pursue your interests, and maybe £614 isn't all that much to you...but if you want any chance of building a collection of value, you really need to be doing your research before splurging such an amount.
New Member
Netherlands
5 Posts
 Posted 09/10/2020  08:52 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Philip2 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Princetane wrote: Philips coin is definitely kosher.

Thanks for the reply. Good to hear. Although bougt from a reputable Swedish dealer it's always tricky to buy such a coin online. There are a lot of fakes of this particular coin. Funny detail: this is the only coin I have that came with a lifetime warranty. ;-)

Edited by Philip2
09/10/2020 08:58 am
Pillar of the Community
Australia
802 Posts
 Posted 09/11/2020  03:07 am  Show Profile   Check ryurazu's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add ryurazu to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Remember Down under we have Dollarydoos Hahaha, I'm not 100% but it think I saw that Gothic florin as for 1100AUD ballzy :D
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