Coin Community Family of Web Sites
Like us on Facebook! Subscribe to our Youtube Channel! Check out our Twitter! Check out our Pinterest!
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

Welcome Guest! Need help? Got a question? Inherit some coins?
Our coin forum is completely free! Register Now!

Ragusa 1759 Tallero -- Mystery Portrait

 
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
United States
1002 Posts
 Posted 05/05/2016  12:13 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add jgenn to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
The Republic of Ragusa was an independent coastal nation that existed from the 14th century to the 18th century in what is now Southern Croatia and its principal city is now known as Dubrovnik. It was governed by an elected official called the Rector who's term was not very long, much shorter than the duration of the portraits on their coins. The portrait on the 1759 tallero is the same one that appeared every year from 1751 to 1779. I assume it was a popular individual who became the Rector in 1750 or 1751 but I can't find a reference to whom it could be. Are there any Ragusa experts out there that can put a name to the portrait?

Pillar of the Community
Russian Federation
2768 Posts
 Posted 05/05/2016  10:25 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add january1may to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Not as much a Ragusa expert (barely heard of the country) as a googling expert, but the only specific name I found associated with this issue was Junius de Restis (listed as rector for 1730, apparently died 1735), in this lot.

Apparently the Croatians do not know either (the article ends with "it would be nice to check Dubrovnik archives and figure out who it actually was"). As far as I understand the article in question, the portrait was changed in 1755, so there might actually be two different people pictured on the 1751-54 and 1755-79 coins (still no idea who either of them was).

I would not be surprised if - due to the short terms - this was actually intended to be a generic image of a "rector of Ragusa", not representing anyone in particular.
If so, Junius de Restis is as good a guess for the original prototype as any.
Edited by january1may
05/05/2016 10:26 am
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
United States
1002 Posts
 Posted 05/06/2016  12:44 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jgenn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you, january1may for some fine research. I agree that the portrait on 1751-54 issues are of a different individual, although the pose, costume and hair are very similar. I viewed dozens of these and it appears that the second individual ages over time so it may have been a specific person that was the model and posed for the portrait at several different times. I guess for now I'll have to be satisfied with the mystery.
Valued Member
United Kingdom
209 Posts
 Posted 09/13/2019  10:47 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add stratocaster to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sorry to resurrect this old topic,

I was wondering if you've figured out in the meantime whose portrait it is?

I've figured out the legend:
DVCAT ET SEM REIP RAC
DVCAT(us) ET SEM(is) REIP(ublicae) R(h)AC(usin)
One and a half ducats of the Republic of Ragusa

I have a type not listed under KM#18, 1768 GB-GA, with a reversed "A" in "DVCAT" on the reverse. Same as this one:
https://www.ma-shops.com/emporium/i...php?id=15296

The reverse seems to be a die match (the "I" in "REIP", the "E" in "ET"), maybe the obverse too?



Thanks for having a look!
Edited by stratocaster
09/14/2019 12:35 am
Pillar of the Community
United States
2460 Posts
 Posted 09/13/2019  4:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
No obverse die match. Your rector has a more pronounced "double chin" and 4+ curls below the chin.

I do not see a reverse die match either. Among other things, yours has the interesting use of an upside-down A for the V in "DVCAT," the initials at the bottom are much farther apart in relation to the cartouche, etc.
Edited by tdziemia
09/13/2019 4:46 pm
Pillar of the Community
Russian Federation
2768 Posts
 Posted 09/13/2019  4:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add january1may to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Among other things, yours has the interesting use of an upside-down A for the V in "DVCAT,"
I think @stratocaster is trying to say that their coin might be a match to the MA Shops example they linked (with the same feature), and not to the coin in the OP (which is in any case a very different date).
Valued Member
United Kingdom
209 Posts
 Posted 09/14/2019  12:36 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add stratocaster to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you for clarifying @january1may ! Indeed it's a die match with the MA shops
Pillar of the Community
United States
2460 Posts
 Posted 09/14/2019  1:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sorry for my misunderstanding!
I agree it's less clear whether the obv is a die match (partially due to the wear on the MA coin). The row of buttons going up from about 7:00 are not the same size on the MA coin (or is the patina just making it look this way?), but are nearly the same on stratocaster's coin ... The initial G at 8:00 looks closer to the vestments on the MA coin (or is it just wear?), the foot of the N in RAGHVSIN appears to be flat, not notched on the MA coin.
Edited by tdziemia
09/14/2019 2:13 pm
Valued Member
United Kingdom
209 Posts
 Posted 09/14/2019  4:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add stratocaster to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you @tdziemia for having a closer look!

I was quite curious so I did a little overlay:


I am quite certain the obverse matches too. For these kind of coins, there would be obvious differences usually, like a different hair pattern, or number of buttons, etc.

it would be interesting to have two coins from the same pair of dies, but I the MA-shops piece is way overpriced.

Anyway, I apologise for completely hijacking this thread... so back to the original question... who is the guy?
Pillar of the Community
United States
2460 Posts
 Posted 09/14/2019  10:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Nice work!

Indeed, on the original question, I think we will never know, unless we subscribe to Croatian Journal of Numismatics
Edited by tdziemia
09/15/2019 07:40 am
Valued Member
United States
334 Posts
 Posted 09/15/2019  12:29 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add retiredkper to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There must be many different portraits but since all are wearing ceremonial robes and wigs they all look very similar. This link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...ic_of_Ragusa should take you to a partial list of Ragusa (Dubrovnik) Rectors.
  Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.

Coin Community Member eBay Sales

Certified Coins   Certified VAMs   Certified Errors  




Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2019 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2019 Coin Community Forums
It took 1.31 seconds to rattle this change. Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.05