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1797 George III Twopence

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Pillar of the Community
United States
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 Posted 06/11/2018  6:28 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Lucky Cuss to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I'd not run across one of these until today. The shop actually had a pair of them, the one pictured below being by far in the better condition of the two.

This monster tips the scales at 57 grams, which seems rather at odds with its intended function as "small change"....





Colligo ergo sum
Edited by Lucky Cuss
06/11/2018 8:29 pm
Rest in Peace
United States
17900 Posts
 Posted 06/11/2018  7:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add moxking to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
These have been heavily counterfeited, but yours appears to be the real deal. I've only owned two of those beasts and I had a hard time parting with them both times.

Yours appears to be VF (British) or EF (US), with much nicer rims than normally seen.
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 Posted 06/11/2018  7:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Lucky Cuss to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
These have been heavily counterfeited

Are there diagnostics whereby such can be detected?

Colligo ergo sum
Edited by Lucky Cuss
06/11/2018 10:45 pm
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United Kingdom
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 Posted 06/12/2018  5:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Anaximander to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
When this was minted, people still expected coins to contain their face value in metal. This is why this 2d, known as the "cartwheel tuppence" weighed two ounces ( 2oz ). There was a cartwheel penny from the same year which weighed 1oz. Copper prices rose enormously during the Napoleonic wars, which led to the 1806/7 pennies being lighter. ( There was no 2d at this time as the size was unpopular ). It wasn't until the great recoinage of 1816 that society finally moved away from coins holding exact face value to being more like tokens of value.

I have heard of cartwheel 2d and 1d coins being used as kitchen and shop weights long after they ceased circulation, presumably because thrifty people realised they were cheaper than actually buying weights. I also visited an English windmill once where the 2d had been placed underneath a vertical axle, to ensure the axle turned smoothly. Being made of soft copper it had squashed to fit forming a bearing.
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 Posted 06/12/2018  5:53 pm  Show Profile   Check NumisRob's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add NumisRob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very nice coin, Lucky Cuss! I'm with moxking on the grade. These often turn up with very battered edges and lots of rim dings - this is one of the nicest I've seen.
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 Posted 06/12/2018  10:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Lucky Cuss to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
In the interest of full disclosure, the rim is not entirely ding free - there is this pair.



Colligo ergo sum
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 Posted 10/12/2018  4:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Lucky Cuss to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I came across something interesting regarding this coin, perhaps common knowledge and maybe commented upon before here, but I thought I'd post it anyway.

Matthew Boulton, whose Soho Mint was the contractor for the striking of the 1797 and 1799 copper issues, wrote:

"I intend that there shall be a coincidence between our Money, Weight, and Measures, by making 8 twopenny pieces 1 lb, and to measure 1 foot; 16 penny pieces 1 lb and 17 to measure 2 feet; 32 half-pence 1 lb, and 10 to measure 1 foot."

The 1799 farthing conformed to a like rationalization, at ounce apiece 64 weighing a pound, and with each an inch across, 12 of them thus comprising a foot.

Matthew Boulton 1728-1809



Colligo ergo sum
Edited by Lucky Cuss
10/13/2018 09:41 am
Bedrock of the Community
United States
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 Posted 10/13/2018  12:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add IndianGoldEagle to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Nice one with minimal rim dings.
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 Posted 11/17/2018  10:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Lucky Cuss to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Did anyone else take note of one of these twopence being found in this season's premiere of the History Channel's The Curse of Oak Island? It was located via metal detection about a foot underground on property recently cleared of many years overgrowth for the specific purpose of being so searched. I find it intriguing that one of these should have been lost in Nova Scotia apparently a very long time ago. I don't see that any still images of this artifact have yet been made available online, but from what I could see it appeared to have pretty much intact rims.

Colligo ergo sum
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 Posted 11/18/2018  07:24 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add scopru to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I just watched that yesterday evening. It was a nice find I thought. I actually wasn't expecting a coin to be dug up, I figured it would be another spike or some other trinket. So was a nice surprise to see a coin.
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 Posted 11/18/2018  4:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kopper Ken to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I would agree with an EF grade.


KK
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 Posted 11/26/2018  10:27 pm  Show Profile   Check ryurazu's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add ryurazu to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
any way to tell if they are counterfeit? since I would think the counterfeit would probably also use copper or something close to that.
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 Posted 11/27/2018  11:26 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add peter1234 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm not aware of contemporary counterfeits....but there are shed loads of modern re-strikes.
I also believe the original dies were purchased and various types were produced during the 19C.
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 Posted 11/29/2018  5:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Lucky Cuss to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
...there are shed loads of modern re-strikes. I also believe the original dies were purchased and various types were produced during the 19C.

That brings us back to the as yet unanswered question I asked earlier in this thread. Are there identifiable characteristics whereby such later reproductions can be distinguished from the actual 1797 issue, particularly in any case(s) for which genuine dies were subsequently being employed?

Colligo ergo sum
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 Posted 12/03/2018  12:50 am  Show Profile   Check TerryT's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add TerryT to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Real nice one. Now you'll have to search around to find out all the varieties of this coin. I imagine there must be publications or you can check auctions where varieties would be noted.

I believe the coin found on Oak Island was the 1p not the 2p. I stopped my TV, got my 1p and 2p and placed it in my hand as they showed, and compared it to the screen shot. It was too thin and small to be the 2p. My wife, to whom I often talk about coins, agreed that it was not a 2p. Gary may be British and a metal-detector "expert", but he doesn't know British coins. (he didn't know immediately that an earlier find was a Charles I (c1670's) farthing by the obvious bust, tsktsk).
Edited by TerryT
12/03/2018 12:58 am
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 Posted 01/06/2021  2:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Lucky Cuss to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

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Colligo ergo sum
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