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Toned Peace Dollars - A Thing Of The Past?

 
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Pillar of the Community

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 Posted 09/18/2018  9:32 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add jimbucks to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Years ago toned Peace dollars were all the rage, bringing big premiums, especially in problem free TPG holders to weed out the flood of AT coins. Has this bubble popped?
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 Posted 09/18/2018  9:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Mayflower2020 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think it varies on the buyers. I still see a lot of toned silver going for a lot more than I think it should. It looks pretty, but it's still damaged in my opinion. You can only have the original luster once. To me it's like a fully restored classic car. Looks great, but isn't original anymore.
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 Posted 09/18/2018  10:37 pm  Show Profile   Check paralyse's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Naturally toned Peace dollars with pleasant toning are orders of magnitude scarcer than the same in Morgans.

It is speculated (Wayne Miller) that there were at least two and maybe more conditions which made it difficult for Peace dollars to develop attractive toning, notably, a planchet rinse pre-strike and limited exposure to a favorable environment (sulfur) due to not spending much time bagged up before release. (Compare pre-21 Morgans that sat bagged for 20-40 years or more after being struck before ever seeing the light of day again.)

Artificial toning that very strongly resembles natural toning can allegedly be done by "gassing" older TPG slabs. The result is virtually indistinguishable from natural toning.

The market for attractively toned Peace dollars in PCGS/NCG/ANACS holders, especially with CAC green beans, is still voracious but constrained by a lack of available coins to purchase. This sometimes results in some big-time numbers vs. price guide values or historical trends when such coins do come up for auction. As an example, I recently saw a listing for a nicely crescent toned PCGS 1923 graded MS63 with a CAC green bean sell for something like $380 against a "normal coin" market value of maybe 40 bucks. By toned Morgan dollar standards, it wouldn't have really even been that noteworthy, but as it was a Peace dollar, it brought substantially stronger money.
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC
Specializing in 1932-1964 Washington quarters

"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
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Canada
1190 Posts
 Posted 09/19/2018  12:47 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add hadleydog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
It is speculated (Wayne Miller) that there were at least two and maybe more conditions which made it difficult for Peace dollars to develop attractive toning, notably, a planchet rinse pre-strike and limited exposure to a favorable environment (sulfur) due to not spending much time bagged up before release. (Compare pre-21 Morgans that sat bagged for 20-40 years or more after being struck before ever seeing the light of day again.)


I believe there to be at least four factors involved with respect to why Peace dollars didn't tone like Morgans.

1- Planchet rinsing (there is some evidence that the acid bath into which planchets were plunged after annealing to remove discoloring oxidation was more highly concentrated for Peace dollars).
2- Length of time stored in bags
3- Location of stored bags/harsh conditions such as humidity
4- The change in the composition of the mint bags themselves ( I know from extant documents that A Piatt Andrew ordered changes to bag materials in early 1910 to reduce cost. (The bags for all coins were made in the sewing room at the various mints.) George Roberts continued Andrew's cost cutting, so it is possible that changes in materials reduced the opportunity for toning of silver coins after the first part of the 20th century).


Quote:
Artificial toning that very strongly resembles natural toning can allegedly be done by "gassing" older TPG slabs. The result is virtually indistinguishable from natural toning.


Actually, the gassing of old slabs leads to rather horrible toning which all shares the same "look" and is easily distinguished from natural.
Note the complete lack of elevation chromatics, the wrong color progression, and the abrupt color transitions.

Edited by hadleydog
09/19/2018 12:50 am
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 Posted 09/19/2018  01:03 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add hadleydog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I still see a lot of toned silver going for a lot more than I think it should. It looks pretty, but it's still damaged in my opinion. You can only have the original luster once. To me it's like a fully restored classic car. Looks great, but isn't original anymore.


Toning does not impair mint luster, that thin layer of silver oxide that forms on every single silver coin struck actually provides a layer of protection for what should be considered original surfaces (unless the coin was dipped prior to toning).

That original luster is not impaired until the toning reaches a terminal point, or the coin is dipped.


Edited by hadleydog
09/19/2018 01:55 am
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 Posted 09/19/2018  5:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Slider23 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Artificial toning that very strongly resembles natural toning can allegedly be done by "gassing" older TPG slabs. The result is virtually indistinguishable from natural toning.



Below is a gassed Peace dollar with a photo after gas and before gas. The gased Peace dollars were not close to natural toning. The gased coin sold on eBay. The seller that was doing the gased coins is apparently no longer selling on eBay.

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 Posted 11/20/2018  3:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Slider23 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Paralyse, the toning gas dudes are getting better and you are correct as the in holder toning is getting virtually indistinguishable from natural toning. Latest example of gas in holder below. The before gas coin sold on eBay 10/16/18. The after gas in now on sale.

All coins in the rattler holders from seller have been gassed. Check out the coin from seller:183539113899

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 Posted 11/20/2018  9:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add hadleydog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Paralyse, the toning gas dudes are getting better and you are correct as the in holder toning is getting virtually indistinguishable from natural toning.

Seriously? Both examples posted above scream AT, not even close, and actually offer negative eye appeal.
Would that piece have fooled you Slider?
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 Posted 11/20/2018  9:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jimbucks to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Is this an example of gas toning?

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 Posted 11/20/2018  10:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add hadleydog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Is this an example of gas toning? 


Although I'm very cautious with toned Peace dollars, it has all the characteristics of a naturally toned coin. From the image provided, the color progression appears both correct and subtle, and it has that 'crackled' appearance that is not evident in the AT'd example posted above.
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 Posted 11/20/2018  10:34 pm  Show Profile   Check paralyse's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The "after" photo coin is AT but it would fool many, many bidders who don't have your expertise on the subject (and you do have a very large amount of expertise!!) They are the ones who will be easily victimized by these sorts of shenanigans and it is they who make up a large portion of our hobby.

Also note that the label has discolored quite a bit along with the coin's sudden outbreak of toning. 100 years of toning in a month is quite impressive!




Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC
Specializing in 1932-1964 Washington quarters

"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
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 Posted 11/20/2018  11:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Slider23 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Seriously? Both examples posted above scream AT, not even close, and actually offer negative eye appeal.
Would that piece have fooled you Slider?


I buy a lot of toned coins online and there are a lot of sellers that do have a clue of how to photograph a toned coin. On the 84 O Morgan one would question is it a bad photo, slack TPG grading or a gassed coin? The Peace dollar I posted looks gassed. The TPG grading has not helped the AT issue as they have slabbed a number of coins that I would consider AT.

My point is the the gas dudes are getting better with different colors and toning patterns. I am concerned over the improvement of gassed coins in holders.
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 Posted 11/21/2018  12:01 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Slider23 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Is this an example of gas toning?


The Peace dollar looks like natural terminal black toning. If you dipped the Peace dollar, I would bet the luster is etched under the black toning.
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 Posted 11/21/2018  01:11 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add hadleydog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The TPG grading has not helped the AT issue as they have slabbed a number of coins that I would consider AT. 

My point is the the gas dudes are getting better with different colors and toning patterns. I am concerned over the improvement of gassed coins in holders.

Agreed on both counts and yes, they would fool many.....especially since they are already TPG authenticated.
I know from ats that PCGS is aware of the issue. It will be interesting to see how they resolve it.






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 Posted 11/21/2018  01:25 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add hadleydog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The Peace dollar looks like natural terminal black toning. If you dipped the Peace dollar, I would bet the luster is etched under the black toning.

Sadly, I agree. A strong luster underneath the black toning might give me pause to reconsider, but my first impression was also terminal toning.
I once owned what appeared to be a black, highly lustrous Morgan with a cool textile streak running across her cheek (purchased from Andy Kimmel). Under a loupe however, the black was composed of multiple colors. I didn't realize at the time just how rare it was, and haven't seen another like it since.
Edited by hadleydog
11/21/2018 02:46 am
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 Posted 11/21/2018  02:39 am  Show Profile   Check paralyse's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I saved this dirty lady from the culls tray @ the LCS awhile back for $10. Never seen reverse toning quite that dark.




Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC
Specializing in 1932-1964 Washington quarters

"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
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