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1885 25 Cent Canada Key Date. -au Details-

 
 
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Valued Member

Canada
209 Posts
 Posted 01/09/2019  8:42 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Coin-Flipper to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hi everyone,

I am trying to understand how a TPG labels a coin as "genuine not gradable" but also gives it a AU grade as shown on the photos below. I thought that when a coin has Details and comes back as "genuine ungradable" usually doesn't get a grade?

This specific key date coin with a mintage of only 192K has an AU grade attached to it. Is the grade AU Details because the coin is genuine ?

How would ICCS grade this for example? Would ICCS grade it as EF40 one grade lower than AU details?

Thanks for the input.

( the genuine damage is a RIPPLE on the queen's bust)


Pillar of the Community
Canada
4164 Posts
 Posted 01/09/2019  9:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add john100 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
PCGS in my opinion does it right by saying this coin is a problem 1885 quarter AU but no numeric grade, ICCS would add a numeric grade to this coin along with a comment but adds to confusion. Except for very rare key dates, the details or genuine label renders the coin very hard to resell or heavily discounted
Valued Member
Canada
317 Posts
 Posted 01/09/2019  10:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Talonbat to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
They would give it a numeric gradee. I could see nothing from your pictures but I used the PCGS pictures. The only damage I saw looked like someone tried to punch a hole in her neck. I think ICCS would grade this coin VF30 at best. They might put a comment like mark, they might net grade it down a bit to VF20 or they might do both. They say they don't net grade but its pretty clear it happens as there are tons of examples.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
4164 Posts
 Posted 01/10/2019  12:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add john100 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Exactly why ICCS numeric grading problem coins adds more confusion than good, when you see a PCGS, NGC graded coin with no numeric grade you instantly know it's a problem coin
Valued Member
Canada
202 Posts
 Posted 01/10/2019  4:20 pm  Show Profile   Check NumisCat's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add NumisCat to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very weak strike with a large dig under the ear. Slender planchet flaw near TS in CENTS. Doesn't really matter what ICCS would call this, since their opinion has become virtually meaningless. From the images, it looks like XF sharpness, but there might be less wear when held at an angle than it looks straight on. Not a particularly nice example, but a challenging date.
Numismatic cataloger, writer, and researcher.

Please take a moment to check out my new website: http://www.jacoblipsonrarecoins.com
Pillar of the Community
Canada
2134 Posts
 Posted 01/11/2019  08:42 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add doubleeagle59 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Doesn't really matter what ICCS would call this, since their opinion has become virtually meaningless


Insane comment.
Valued Member
Canada
209 Posts
 Posted 01/11/2019  12:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coin-Flipper to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
John100 thank you for your input. Numiscat I thank you as well although I dont necessarily agree that ICCS are virtually meaningless. They are a company that offers an opinion, I am sure we will all agree to disagree at something.

This specific coin is a hard date. To me this looks like a knife that is sharp on both ends. PCGS grades it AU and gives details. So price of an AU coin and canada is almost 3K.

If ICCS grades it and gives it a net grade of VF20/30 price is 850


Wouldnt you want the ICCS guidance to help you determine if its worth buying or not? Or would you rather have PCGS grades it AU with details and you determine what its worth?
Valued Member
Canada
202 Posts
 Posted 01/11/2019  2:28 pm  Show Profile   Check NumisCat's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add NumisCat to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
*meaningless to me, and to a handful of others who I have spoken with and understand how to grade. That's not to say that people who do know how to grade don't like ICCS. Also, ICCS sometimes gets it right. No doubt about it. But it's the number of times they get it wrong and the lack of identifying problems that should turn people off. A grading service only has value if they have a good reputation. Can anyone say ICCS has made improvements to their service or reputation in the last few years? I would argue the opposite is very much true.

Obviously, ICCS still plays a hugely important role in the Canadian coin market (unfortunately). But that's because their service costs $7 and no paperwork is required. It's not because they are consistent, transparent, have great holders, etc.

Determining what its worth doesn't depend 100% with what ICCS or PCGS put on the holder. The strike, amount of wear, quality of the surfaces, and general availability of the date are what make the coin worth buying or not worth buying, and at what price point. The way I look at your 1885, it's a good date, not easy to find in higher grades. Your coin is softly struck, but so are some of the others available online. Yours also has a punch mark on the portrait and a planchet flaw. I saw one other similar example with a planchet flaw (on the obverse). Planchet flaws don't affect the grade, but they could affect the appeal of the coin, and therefore the value. Once all that's figured out, compare what other examples have actually sold for, and rank your example relative to those pieces. You should take Trends, Coins and Canada into account, too. Then, set your price.
Numismatic cataloger, writer, and researcher.

Please take a moment to check out my new website: http://www.jacoblipsonrarecoins.com
Pillar of the Community
Canada
4164 Posts
 Posted 01/11/2019  4:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add john100 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is not a PCGS au graded coin, it's a problem PCGS au coin with no where near the trend value, unless it's a very rare 21 five cents or 50 cents it's hard to sell. The point I was trying to get across was ICCS would add a numeric grade and comment which confuses some collector, many years ago some collecting friends taught me a problem coin is always a problem coin, save up or buy the best grade you can afford and good luck !
Valued Member
Canada
209 Posts
 Posted 01/11/2019  7:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coin-Flipper to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
John100 I totally agree with you 100%. I like how you put that into perspective. I will be honest this coin is on ebay up for auction. I dont think I will participate because I am convinced by your statement. It is a PCGS problematic coin. Your friends gave you a wise advice and for this I also thank you for sharing that same advice.

NumisCat, I agree that there are many occasions that ICCS gets it wrong and I dont like the fact that they dont identify problems. Throughout the years they have made no improvements or changes. I am assuming they are comfortable with their standards and business to them must be going okay. Usually you change your business approach with improvements when you realize what you are doing is not working. For them this appears to be working.

I have been collecting for about 4 years and I have never submitted any raw coin. Regardless this coin as deemed ungradable from PCGS may have to find a home elsewhere.


I thank you guys for the time you take to explain things. I believe maybe in the future a few members from this community should register a business and with combine expertise offer the same service as any TPG does?:)
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1153 Posts
 Posted 01/13/2019  2:41 pm  Show Profile   Check Pokermandude's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Pokermandude to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
VF cleaned by sane grading standards.

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