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Grade My Peace Dollar And A Few Questions (New Pics)

 
 
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 Posted 05/19/2019  6:14 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add ACWhammy to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
EDIT: I've uploaded new pics using tips I found on the coin photography section. Including putting a white piece of paper inside the microscope (usb plugable) to diffuse the light, and only having one light source so as not to cast multiple shadows. I'm not sure if this helped much.

Hello, so I've decided to take my first knack at really grading my own Peace dollars. I would like your opinion on the one I believe to be my nicest (so that I have a baseline).

I'm using the ANA grading standards book and I have a few questions.

1) It mentions not to confuse wearing with weakly struck coins. How can I tell if a coin has wear or is just simply weakly struck? For example, I have 4 or 5 great coins that seem to have a small trace of wear on the reverse on the feathers. This could mean the difference between an AU 58 and an MS 64/65. Any insight here?

2) How much should tarnish spots be taken into consideration? One of my Peace dollars has a few dark tarnish spots that are noticeable in regular lighting, but are barely noticeable under direct light (I didn't notice them at the coin shop when I purchased it!) Other than that the coin has high luster. Would this lose points under "eye appeal" or "luster" or is it not given as much consideration as contact marks and hairlines?

Thank you!

Old Pics:



New Pics:


Edited by ACWhammy
05/20/2019 2:20 pm
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 Posted 05/19/2019  7:08 pm  Show Profile   Check BH1964's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add BH1964 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Luster breaks are a good indication of circulation. These are sometimes called rubs.

Higher grade Mint State often have a booming luster that is easy to recognize once you get used to it. You need to post pictures of what you call tarnish spots. Without seeing them it's hard to know what to say.

When grading Mint State coins I count surface preservation (contact marks, etc) as 50% of the grade. Luster, eye appeal and strike make up the other 50%. Hairlines are a sign of a cleaned or damaged coin.

P.S. The coin you've posted looks cleaned or polished. Could be the lighting though.

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Edited by BH1964
05/19/2019 7:09 pm
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 Posted 05/19/2019  9:15 pm  Show Profile   Check paralyse's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The coin you posted is not possible to accurately grade for surfaces because there is way too much light on the coin; looking only at sharpness and field disturbances, the presence of what appear to be numerous nicks and dings in the fields and on the devices, as well as a slight indication of rub on the forelock, cheek and eagle's breast/perch, I would figure this is an AU coin.

Grading is a highly subjective thing, and I agree with what BH1964 wrote above, as well. That being said, to me, a truly "Uncirculated" coin is one which did not enter circulation long enough to obtain any appreciable wear or degradation of luster and surface originality. Such a coin might have been pulled from a freshly-minted shipment to a bank, or from a new bank roll, or obtained directly from the mint, but was not otherwise subjected to its intended use as a means of payment. The question of "how long can a coin be out of the mint's hands before it becomes circulated" is a very broad one and the answer to that question is largely subjective. The very strictest of graders will tell you that once a coin has been touched by anything outside of the mint which struck it, it is Circulated, and other graders might be a bit less conservative and allow brief periods of handling by bank employees, treasury workers, mint workers, collectors, and individuals but still consider it Uncirculated if it was handled in such a way that the surfaces do not show wear or disturbances.

When it comes to differentiating wear from a weak strike, the key often lies with the surfaces, especially luster. A truly Uncirculated coin with weakly-struck areas will show no interruption of luster or change in color or "frost" across those areas. Usually, once actual wear / rub occurs, the surfaces will lose luster and change color or appearance relative to the surrounding areas of the coin, although it can be difficult to determine what is the result of contact with other coins (e.g. Morgan and Peace dollars in bags) and what is the result of human handling.

If you study a particular coin series, such as Peace dollars, you can learn with practice which areas of the coin, and even which particular dates and mintmarks, tend to be weakly struck, and looking at graded Uncirculated examples of those coins vs. high grade Circulated (AU-55 to AU-58) can teach you how to distinguish strike issues from circulation wear.
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 Posted 05/19/2019  9:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add llewellin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
In those photos your coin looks cleaned
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 Posted 05/20/2019  01:48 am  Show Profile   Check spruett001's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add spruett001 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
with all of the above. That's good info from BH1964 and paralyse.

To properly grade the coin, we will need pics with better lighting that show the coin's luster. As it is, like others said, it looks polished/cleaned with a lot of "shine" but no luster.

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 Posted 05/20/2019  10:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add panzaldi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As a collector for over 50 years I have developed my own standards for the coins I want to add to my collection. commenting on paralyse statement which was very good, I'm in the camp that a coin can be in circulation and still be graded as MS and here's why.

to me an individual coins grade is just a representative of where a coin is in relationship to its original state. An MS70 coin being the apex of the grade where a coin exhibits perfection. points are then deducted based on marks & dings, scratches, luster, toning, surface preservation and strike. in my mind a G4 coin is an MS70 with 66 points deducted for amount wear and the above grading components. if I cant see any type of rub or wear or anything that would suggest the coin was in ciculation even though the coin was in circulation at some point I'm going to grade in the MS range. even a TPG grader has no idea if a raw coin ever saw the light of day in circulation unless there are indicators. if a coin went to a bank and handed out to you or me and immediately pulled and put in a box there is no way to determine that. is the coin circulated? Technically yes but if there are no signs of that how is anyone going to know that.

what I'm getting at here is that this is my approach to grading for my collection. you need to determine what is acceptable for you and the coins you collect. some folks like blast white silver coins, some like toned coins, some don't mind a ding here or there etc...


if you are collecting as an investment to resell then I would suggest only purchasing slabs coins from the top TPG's otherwise you most likely will get burned at some point since the way you grade may not be what the TPG graders see. do they miss the grade sometimes? yep, but on whole they are pretty solid. this is where you look at the grade on the holder and then assess the coin based on your criteria to assign a value. never base your entire decision on the slab grade only. just look at this site and you'll see why. there are quite a few posts that the collectors and dealers here disagree with the slab grade

hope this adds to your knowledge base
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 Posted 05/20/2019  1:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Better pics needed for sure.
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 Posted 05/20/2019  2:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ACWhammy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Luster breaks are a good indication of circulation. These are sometimes called rubs.


Ok, do luster breaks first appear on the high points of the coin?


Quote:
When grading Mint State coins I count surface preservation (contact marks, etc) as 50% of the grade. Luster, eye appeal and strike make up the other 50%. Hairlines are a sign of a cleaned or damaged coin.


This sounds like a good rule


Quote:
P.S. The coin you've posted looks cleaned or polished. Could be the lighting though.


Will you be able to grade this with the new pic or do I need to go back to the drawing board?


Quote:
as well as a slight indication of rub on the forelock, cheek and eagle's breast/perch


Wow you have a good eye!


Quote:
When it comes to differentiating wear from a weak strike, the key often lies with the surfaces, especially luster. A truly Uncirculated coin with weakly-struck areas will show no interruption of luster or change in color or "frost" across those areas


Ok this makes sense. I may have to buy a slabbed MS coin to use as a baseline for comparison. As some of these were sold to me "BU" but I'm not sure they truly are uncirculated.


Quote:
ven a TPG grader has no idea if a raw coin ever saw the light of day in circulation unless there are indicators


I was thinking this as well. According to my ANA book, the only indicator that disqualifies a coin from MS are signs of wear and no mint luster. An MS-60 coin is described as "A strictly Uncirculated coin with no trace of wear....Has full mint luster, but may lack brilliance..."


Quote:
if you are collecting as an investment to resell then I would suggest only purchasing slabs coins from the top TPG's otherwise you most likely will get burned at some point since the way you grade may not be what the TPG graders see


Sound advice! I'm a collector and I realize I won't be able to sell based on my opinion of the grade, but I don't mind shelling out $50-100 on a raw coin I want. However, I won't spend too much more than $100 unless it's slabbed, mainly to protect my investment.


Quote:
hope this adds to your knowledge base


Yes, it does! Thank you everyone.

Now can you grade my coin? Or are the new pictures still not up to standards?

AC
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 Posted 05/20/2019  6:02 pm  Show Profile   Check BH1964's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add BH1964 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Ok, do luster breaks first appear on the high points of the coin?


As a general rule yes. I always look at the high points for signs of wear/rubs.

Your new pics still show a cleaned coin with Uncirculated details.
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 Posted 05/21/2019  4:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ACWhammy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:

Your new pics still show a cleaned coin with Uncirculated details.


Bummer, I'm going to have to take it into the coin shop and ask them their opinion.

What gave it away that it's cleaned? I scoured the web on how to tell if a coin was cleaned but I still can't tell by looking at this one.

Thank you
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 Posted 05/21/2019  6:42 pm  Show Profile   Check BH1964's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add BH1964 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Bummer, I'm going to have to take it into the coin shop and ask them their opinion.

What gave it away that it's cleaned? I scoured the web on how to tell if a coin was cleaned but I still can't tell by looking at this one.


These pictures show a coin with an unnatural shine and surface finish. I am not saying with certainty that the coin has been cleaned, only that it looks like it probably was cleaned.

Now whether or not someone considers it market-acceptable is a whole other animal. It does not appear harshly cleaned.

If this sounds confusing don't get frustrated. There is a lot of subjectivity in numismatics and your coin is an example of that.
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 Posted 05/21/2019  6:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Must agree, looks not just cleaned, but dipped.
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 Posted 05/23/2019  3:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ACWhammy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Man, I don't know how you guys figured this out based on the pictures, as I still can't see it and now I know what to look for (I think).

I took it down to the coin shop and they told me that it has, indeed, been cleaned. He graded it a high AU and offered me $20 (but I'm not trying to sell it). I paid $40 for it. I'm going to try to take it back to the guy I bought it from and see if he'll exchange it for one that hasn't been cleaned.

I wouldn't have known this if it weren't for all of your expertise, so I appreciate it. I'm going to post another one of my Peace dollars for grading here shortly, so I can hopefully get an opinion on grade for a Peace dollar I have that hasn't been marred by cleaning.

Thanks again,

AC
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 Posted 05/23/2019  6:13 pm  Show Profile   Check BH1964's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add BH1964 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Man, I don't know how you guys figured this out based on the pictures, as I still can't see it and now I know what to look for (I think).


I've purchased more than my share of cleaned coins. You are on the right track, trust me.
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 Posted 05/23/2019  6:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jimbucks to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
An offer of $20 from a dealer is actually generous. What you paid for it is irrelevant.
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