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1834 Do Rm Republic 8 Reales. Riddell #371 CCc

 
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 Posted 01/12/2020  09:29 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Augustus49 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
A common contemporary circulating counterfeit in my Cap and Rays collection.

It is underweight although I am still looking for my old flip for the coin as to how much under. I misplaced it somehow after I submitted it to NGC as a lark.

They, bless their hearts, did not send it back as "NOT GENUINE", but as "AUTHENTICITY UNVERIFIABLE".

Is the latter NGC's code for CCC?

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 Posted 01/13/2020  11:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Augustus49 What you have there is the mule of the Riddell # 371 cap die and the Riddell # 365 Eagle die.

The Eagle associated with the # 371 has a crest while the eagle associated with the # 365 does not.

It is possible to find all 4 mating combinations for these dies 365/365, 365/371, 371/365 and 371/371.

Beyond that I am looking into a theory that this family group of counterfeits was produced from hubbed dies. This would confirm Riddell's contention that these coins were fabricated in Europe. Riddell believed these coins were produced by someone capable of "die duplication".

Are you aware of the belief that these well made counterfeits were actually made from die hubs prepared by the same company that supplied the original hubs? As the theory goes, Bras-de-Fer ordered sample hubs from a company in France. The makers apparently believed that they would be making new hubs each year. Bras-de-Fer apparently saw it as a one time deal. Who took and vantage of whom is conjectural. However when the contract was not extended, the hub makers either went into the counterfeiting business or sold the master punches to someone who did.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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 Posted 01/14/2020  09:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Augustus49 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Swamperbob:

Yes, I was aware of that theory. Use of stolen mint dies or of dies manufactured from the French-made hubs to produce counterfeits is probably the reason Brass-de-Fer and successors at Durango placed "secret" marks on some 8 reales of the era to identify genuine coins. C'est la vie.

A closeup of such a secret mark from a coin in my collection is attached.

Have you a counterfeit Durango of any date which, nevertheless, also has one of the secret marks? That would be "doubly" counterfeit if such exists.

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 Posted 01/14/2020  9:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Augustus49 I have not encountered a counterfeit of the French variety with the "secret" die marks.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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